I hear this crap all the time! (page 4)

zen nudist

Yes, there's a world of difference. Christendom claims that we all have immortal souls, from the time we're conceived. The WTS says that's not true.
As far as I know, no one knows at all what will happen after death. Maybe we will just deliver good food for maggots, maybe immortal parts of us go to heaven, hell, to another existence or.... . Who knows! Do you know more than me? I'd love to know! Share your wisdom, please!

JW CONvi N cED me that no immortal soul existed, which seems to match what one can gather from material examination of the world around us.... but in doing so, they also made me question how it would be ME being resurrected if I were to die right now... after all, as my youngest brother pointed out to me, its only a copy of me.... why should I live the JW life only to assured some clone or copy of me would enjoy paradise? When I left JWs I was fairly CONvi N c ED that when I died it would be the end of me and that would be that...which lead me to do not a few reckless things for a while.... but out of curiosity I tried something called past life regression.... the first time I came away farily unchanged in my views... but a year later I tried again and at first, right at the time of doing it, I was no different... but within days, I started a week long series of truly unique and life altering dreams like none prior nor since and now I am far from sure either way... I seemed to relive to different lives prior to my current birth... I learned something of history from one that I had never heard nor read about in this one but yet was historically accurate and I even found the reason why I had never learned of it before....

so who is lying? I think its anyone who pretends to KNOW the real answer.

jeanniebeanz

Is THIS person really you? Or is it just a copy?

That's something I still struggle with. If you really die, how can anything that follows really be you.

Kinda like (don't laugh) your radio presets in the car. The car remembers the presets even when the power goes down because there is a little capacitor (did I spell that right) that has just enough juice to keep the memory in tact. If it goes, you gotta reprogram the whole darned thing.

So, if you have a soul, it's kinda like the capacitor. When the body dies, there is still something running so it's still you. If you don't have a soul, the body dies, and you are *gone*! Might be able to re-boot, but all the real memories are gone...

Am I making any sense at all here, or do I need another cup of coffee?

Jean

zen nudist

Am I making any sense at all here, or do I need another cup of coffee?

I almost quit when this issue first popped into my head... but at the time, right after clearing a judicial meeting for minor sexual misconduct [I visited a strip joint]... it seemed too demonic...like some demon whispered into to my ear.... so I struggled with it... I asked myself things like what made a person on star trek the same after he was murdered by the machine on one side and put back together on the other?

a question that apparently Dr McCoy was also not sure about...

the JW explanation was that God's memory stored your exact patterns so he could re-produce you... but to me that still screamed COPY. and a little thought experiment I shared when I first came on board many moons ago will illustrate:

there is nothing to stop the Almighty one from making this EXACT copy of me right here, right now, BEFORE I die...and if he did so, I would plainly KNOW it was not me because I would still be over here looking at it.... so why does my death change that most significant fact? why would my clone or copy become me just because THIS me is out of the picture?... but in asking that, what really makes me linked to the me I was say yesterday? without some sort of soul linkage, I am really just like George washingtons axe... the handle was replace because it wore out and later the blade was replaced because it rusted away, but it still occupies the same space....

there seems to be some definite part of me who thinks it is still the same me it was ten years ago and that may be an illusion, but apparently everyone on earth to some degree accepts it and the same for themselves... unless of course they are less than ten (^_^)

Pole

I agree with Zen,

Just to rephrase it my way:

This stuff gets even trickier when you give it some thought. If the cells keep replacing themselves, then am I the same person I was 20 years ago?

And even if it didn't apply to nerve/brain cells, then what if I am the sum total of my feelings, knowledge and experiences?

What if that is the real "substance" which largely (though not exclusively) contributes to my set of brain cells being different different from yours?

Hell, when I finish writing this post - will I be exactly the same person I was when I started writing it? ;-)

Pole

Gretchen956

Well I for one am not going to sit around worrying about whether I'm going to heaven, the summerland, be reincarnated, or simply no longer have any conscienceness. I think it would be better suited if I just worry about today and doing what I need to now.

----carry on

Sherry

AlmostAtheist

So, if you have a soul, it's kinda like the capacitor. When the body dies, there is still something running so it's still you.

Yes, that makes sense. If the body is a vessel for the soul (or a companion to it, or a toy, or whatever) and the person is derived more from the soul than the physical brain, it makes sense that you are still you, living or dead.

But that would still bring into question why a person's personality changes (or can change, at least) after a physical trauma that affects their brain. If you are your immortal, immaterial soul, then you should remain you, regardless of the body you drag around with you.

I like the "resurrected before you're dead" illustration. If zen saw a copy of himself pop up and say, "I'm taking over for you, you're about to die," I doubt it would fill him with any great comfort. Fear, more likely. Or anger.

Dave

LittleToe

The "copy" idea just isn't satisfying, is it?

As for the soul expressing itself, isn't it through the physical?
I kinda lean to the side that the spirit is filtered through the mind, emotions and will, to the body (Tripart man).
If the body or it's mental functions are damaged, that will affect the filter.

Just 2p.

Pole

LT,

Interesting idea. Makes sense if you assume that ultimately things have to be fair and perfect, right?

Pole

upside/down

Who wouldn't want a new body- copy, improvement or whatever? People are getting plastic surgery in record numbers - that's not "them". Most people wish they were "better" than they are now. The cosmetics and fashion industry are based on changing what "you" are.

If I download all the info on my computers hard-drive and reload it into a new better system, what harm is done? I guess I'm not all thrilled with the body and mind I have now (definitely a scratch and dent model) and would welcome ANY improvement. How is that not me? It seems most on this board are "damaged goods" and could use a good "reformating" of their hard-drive. You know a good defrag, disc scan and clean-up and maybe an update or two. I would personally welcome it.

What do you say to people with bad genetics that make them diseased, mishapen, fat, ugly, mentally challenged, emotionally challenged etc.? Aren't we splitting hairs? If there is a "God" couldn't he just download "you" into a new body? And if so why is that such a negative.

I'm not with you guys on this one. This is a Dub concept that just doesn't seem to hurt.IMO.

Note- Any Star Trek fans? Are the people that get "beamed" the same person? Disassembled atomically then reassembled and what about their minds and memories? To me it's like the internet... same concept EXACTLY.

u/d (needs some coffee class) MORNIN!

LittleToe

MORNIN u/d

A question for ya.
Regardless of whether the data is stored in the body/ a temporary storage device / or another body, isn't it still about the data? (physical body / spiritual body / physical body)

IMHO the JW idea actually differs little from the idea of the immortal soul doctrine, they just deny the latter, or at least the mechanism that Paul suggests...

I hear this crap all the time!

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