I think I have put this on other threads but here goes .... According to the old testament we are living breathing souls , all animal life are living breathing souls. At the time of the end as depicted in revelation 7 , the great crowd survive the tribulation and from there on are promised eternal life for their obedience . That is immortality of the soul IMO . The apostle Paul spoke of being resurrected and going straight to heaven to be with the lord . It may have been part of the first century christian church beliefs as they believed the end was going to happen around that time , but then John wrote revelation so the there was a change in the belief .
Anyone like me where you still believe in MOST of their doctrines?
by inquirer 72 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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inquirer
Well... I guess most of you people don't believe in the doctrines anymore. I have done a lot of reading of tne NWT. I still think it's the best translation. I have looked at the "fors" and "against" side of it.
If you read Gerard Gertoux's book, "The name of God Yehowah," he explains both "Yehua," and "Yehovah," have always been used as pronunciation, or at least approximate pronunciations and it wasn't made up 500 years ago.
I knew that slientlambs.org exists and I would believe it anyway. Their conduct is completely wrong but I still believe in most of their doctrines, almost all. They explain why they wrote "a god." It suffices to me. they gave proof with other readings from at least 500 years ago other translations using "a god," instead of the Word being God, which is wrong. If you spoke with someone that didn't know anything about the Bible, they would say John 1:1 is a tautology! Is God stupid? No. So it has to mean "a god." It's an indefinite article put before a predicate noun. That's all it is... a prophet, a thief, a man... they give heaps of examples of it being written in the From the Greek Text.
I understand why you people write such negative thoughts about the Witnesses. But I love Jehovah, and I refuse to not believe him, just because of some evil humans that refuse to change things...
If there were a Reformed Jehovah's Witnesses, I would go to that one instead! But that would probably become corrupt as well.
You can't change these people, just like you can't put new wine into old wineskins. -
OldSoul
inquirer,
I understand your argument. However, my chief concern is not over trifles such as the one you raised. My chief concern is that every dedicated and baptized witness since 1985 has had to answer a question in the affirmative that no dedicated and baptized witness I have ever asked has ever been able to prove the basis for scripturally. Even using the NWT. Teachings that cannot be proven by Scripture are, according to JW dogma, false. (Acts 17:10,11)
" Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah?s Witnesses in association with God?s spirit-directed organization? "
I have seen no evidence of the existence of such a spirit-directed organization in the scriptures. I will PM you the old questions and the new questions.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/9/84617/1.ashx
Here is a link where you might be able to help me with something, in case you want to take a stab at scripturally substantiating four foundational doctrines of Jehovah's Witnesses. "A friend in need" was unable/unwilling to do so. Shadow, an elder who is "unconventional" has promised to try.
Welcome,
OldSoul -
heathen
Oldsoul has a point . These people translated the bible for themselves and still can't use their own bible with consistancy reguarding what it actually says . The only bible I own is the NWT and it's the only one I use but somehow these people tamper with the message to the point that most of what they say is wrong and no matter what kind of proof you show them on any belief to the contrary of their position they will react with contempt , like shooting the messenger . They are all about mind control and the members are more scared of what the WTBTS and the higher ups will do to them than actually looking at the facts for themselves . I've known many j-dubs in my life as I was related to some but most are not worth the effort to call friend and that moronic drivel that comes from the printing corporation isn't worth the paper they print it on .
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Poztate
If there were a Reformed Jehovah's Witnesses, I would go to that one instead! But that would probably become corrupt as well.
It find it strange that you would want to cling to a religion that you acknowledge is corrupt.
Main Entry: 1 cor·rupt
Pronunciation: k&-'r&pt
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin corruptus, past participle of corrumpere, from com- + rumpere to break -- more at REAVE
transitive senses
1 a : to change from good to bad in morals, manners, or actions; also : BRIBE b : to degrade with unsound principles or moral valuesI would hope by "taking in knowledge"? you might come to a realization that MOST or ALL of their doctrines are heavily flawed.
There are very few on this board who still think that they have gotten MOST things right.Those that do feel that still have problems when they try to defend their beliefs.
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heathen
I think people should look at the religion as a cult even tho they don't have charizmatic leaders but do have very manipulative ones . I still believe in God but don't adhere to a religious system thus the handle I chose for myself . I do think people should take it seriously in the approach of reading the material on belief structures and using logic and reason to discern what is accurate knowledge and what is nothing but smoke and mirrors . Just because someone with authority says something doesn't mean it's a fact . The facts are what determine what truth is .The pope claims to be an apostle , does that mean he is or that he has some sort of special communictions with the almighty ? I don't think so .It's a world where you have to research to get to facts and not take anyones word for anything . IMO Even people that see doctors are told to get second opinions before doing major opperations . I have found this board to be most interesting and some of the people posting on the bible are very knowledgable and astute , this has been a most intriquing time I've spent on the board . May God help all of us .......
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JerichoForce
The NWT is more a sectarian paraphrase of the Bible, than a true translation, which has been universally condemned as a perversion of the original Greek and Hebrew by everyone who is not a member of this cult. Because the Greek manuscripts and English translations of all other Bibles contradicts "watchtower doctrine", but cult had no choice but to produce a version of the Bible themselves that did teach their doctrine..
Four out of the five men on the committee had no Hebrew or Greek training at all. They had only a high school education. Franz studied Greek for two years at the University of Cincinnati, but dropped out after his sophomore year. When asked in a Scotland courtroom if he could translate Genesis 2:4 into Hebrew, Franz replied that he could not. The truth is that Franz was unable to translate Hebrew or Greek. What we are left with is a very inexperienced translating committee that twisted Scripture to make it fit the Society's doctrine. Unlike every major translation, the NWT paraphrase was produced under a cloud of secrecy... now you know why!
Let's look at some issues with NWT
It Deletes Entire Verses
For example
When I say that a verse is COMPLETELY deleted, I mean clean/bald-headed/gone/vanished deleted. For instance, if you search for Acts 8:37 in the NWT you will not find it,
36As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, "Look, here is water. Why shouldn't I be baptized?"
38And he ordered the chariot to stop. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him.Verse 37 is CLEAN, BALD-HEADED, GONE, VANISHED, MY FRIENDS (and it is a powerful verse)
And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Matthew 17:21 -- COMPLETELY removed
Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.
Matthew 18:11 -- COMPLETELY removed
For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
Matthew 23:14 -- COMPLETELY removed
"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation."
Mark 9:44 -- COMPLETELY removed
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."
Mark 11:26 -- COMPLETELY removed
But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses."
Mark 15:28 -- COMPLETELY removed
And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors."
Luke 17:36 -- COMPLETELY removed
Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left."
Acts 8:37 -- COMPLETELY removed
"And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."
I John 5:7 -- Vitally important phrase COMPLETELY removed
Jehovah's Witness reading--
"For there are three witness bearers,"
What does the real Bible say?
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
This is one of the GREATEST verses testifying of the trinity. That is why the Jehovah's Witnesses leave it out. They do not believe in the trinity and they do not believe that Jesus is God. Whole books have been written on the manuscript evidence that supports inclusion of this verse in the Bible
In Christ
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Gordy
After being a JW for 30 years and left 4 years ago and became a Christian.
I still believe that God's name is Jehovah, NO, because I have learnt its a made up name from the 12th century by a Catholic monk.
his son is Jesus, YES and is God
no trinity, I now believe in the Trinity as it is revealed in the Bible.
and he died on a torture stake... NO he died on a cross
I love reading the New World Translation, I believe it's the best one, You have got to be joking "the best one" its so full of mistranlations, scriptures twisted to suit JW doctrine, it should be taken outside and shot.
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JerichoForce
Gordy
Couldn't have said all of that better myself...Well written
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inquirer
---JerichoForce---
The NWT is more a sectarian paraphrase of the Bible, than a true translation, which has been universally condemned as a perversion of the original Greek and Hebrew by everyone who is not a member of this cult. Because the Greek manuscripts and English translations of all other Bibles contradicts "watchtower doctrine", but cult had no choice but to produce a version of the Bible themselves that did teach their doctrine..
Four out of the five men on the committee had no Hebrew or Greek training at all. They had only a high school education. Franz studied Greek for two years at the University of Cincinnati, but dropped out after his sophomore year. When asked in a Scotland courtroom if he could translate Genesis 2:4 into Hebrew, Franz replied that he could not. The truth is that Franz was unable to translate Hebrew or Greek. What we are left with is a very inexperienced translating committee that twisted Scripture to make it fit the Society's doctrine. Unlike every major translation, the NWT paraphrase was produced under a cloud of secrecy... now you know why!
Let's look at some issues with NWT
It Deletes Entire Verses
For example
When I say that a verse is COMPLETELY deleted, I mean clean/bald-headed/gone/vanished deleted. For instance, if you search for Acts 8:37 in the NWT you will not find it,
36As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, "Look, here is water. Why shouldn't I be baptized?"
38And he ordered the chariot to stop. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him.
Verse 37 is CLEAN, BALD-HEADED, GONE, VANISHED, MY FRIENDS (and it is a powerful verse)
And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Matthew 17:21 -- COMPLETELY removed
Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.
Matthew 18:11 -- COMPLETELY removed
For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
Matthew 23:14 -- COMPLETELY removed
"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation."
Mark 9:44 -- COMPLETELY removed
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."
Mark 11:26 -- COMPLETELY removed
But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses."
Mark 15:28 -- COMPLETELY removed
And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors."
Luke 17:36 -- COMPLETELY removed
Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left."
Acts 8:37 -- COMPLETELY removed
"And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."
I John 5:7 -- Vitally important phrase COMPLETELY removed
Jehovah's Witness reading--
"For there are three witness bearers,"
What does the real Bible say?
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
This is one of the GREATEST verses testifying of the trinity. That is why the Jehovah's Witnesses leave it out. They do not believe in the trinity and they do not believe that Jesus is God. Whole books have been written on the manuscript evidence that supports inclusion of this verse in the Bible
In Christ
I just had a look at the WT CD Rom, and they say these verses were amitted because many early translations didn't have them in either. So they just simply weigh the "pro's and con's" of the disputed verses. It's no big deal.
If the NWT is so bad, why do these people say it's so good on this web page: http://jehovah.freewebpage.org/1st_draft_part_1.htm (This web page, explains that Jehovah has always been used as God's name. I am a bit disappointed that people ignore me when I mention Gerard Gertoux's [The name of God Yehowah] book. Anyone care to comment?)
Both a Westerner and an Israeli said the NWT is the least biased one out there.
Also, look at this site: http://www.geocities.com/yhwhbible/main.htm - how bias and theology affects translation.
Regarding 1 John 5:7 -- this is based on 4th/5th century Christianity. Other Bible translations write it similar to the NWT anyway.
As regarding the trinity -- Why weren't the ancient Israelites told about Jesus Christ? Jehovah didn't say "Oh by the way, Jesus is God too." The Bible doesn't outrightly say it. Thomas's proclamation when he said my Lord and my God was just out of astonishment. In Corinthians it talks about many God's and Lords but there is only one God the father. And Thomas's proclamation is explained by Jesus any way. You have to read the whole passage to not bring it out of context. Either that, or the Bible contradicts itself. I believe John's time of impalement, was Jewish time, not Roman time. Even today the Muslims, Jews and Chinese love their own calendar.
I just disagree with you. I love my New World Translation.
oh and about "credentials," look at how many people wrote the New American Bible. I have it here at home, and I think it's a very average translation. Look at how many verses are taken out of Job! I could give you a big list if you wanted me to. I suppose the Catholic church is "aye ok," but if a JW does something it's bad.
I mean, I could be watching a Blockbuster movie and not be keen on the actors, but then again I am not going to deny a good movie if I see one. Bad people can do good things. Same with JW's. If they do something that's good (like the NWT) I'll admit it. You don't have to like the people who did something, but you can appreciate the good work they can do.
As a believer in JW theology (most), I love Elton John's music. Does it matter if he's gay? No. He has a lot of great songs. I would only not listen to his music if he promoted his gaydom. I know what you are going to say, what about songs like (the clip) "I'm Still Standing?" Well, I just don't watch the clip.
