Can the Bible be used to disprove the Witnesses

by jaredg 55 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Leolaia

  heathen....We have discussed this topic quite thoroughly in recent threads (and I see we have yet another Rapture thread being posted). The "great multitude" are not in heaven because heaven has come to earth. New Jerusalem and the Temple do not "come down from heaven" (note that it is not heaven itself but New Jerusalem/Paradise that descends) until the very end of the book (ch. 21-22), as following the creation of a new heavens and earth, after the first and second resurrection and after the millenium, as the presumed final end state for eternity. But before this, the Temple was "in heaven" for it does not descend until all things are made new, and yet a "great multitude" were already "in heaven" at the time Babylon the Great is condemned (see Revelation 19:1-2). You see the problem?

  Paul, on the other hand, describes a heavenly ascension in 1 Thessalonians that occurs at the time of the resurrection and Paul only professes a heavenly hope and knows of no other "second destiny" (or even a materialistic chiliasm of the sort typified by 2 Baruch, Papias, Revelation, and Irenaeus).
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  heathen

  perry --- Jesus clearly states that no one had ascended to heaven prior to him . John 3:13 The 2 promises are very clear to me as I read revelation For example jesus only promised that the meek would inherit the earth during his ministry and sermon on the mount but then he promised only his apostles co- rulership . After his resurrection the anointing took place and it was taught that those who conquered the world by preaching about jesus could also share in the co-rulership role. This did not include women obviously but only men , unlike what the WTBTS would have you and I to believe . Of course that would require alot more bible research than I feel up to at the moment . leolaia--- I think you are making a mistake by reading revelation as a novel with a consistant plot line . I believe it is a sequence of visions that John wrote down as it was presented to him . I suggest you read it with that in mind next time . The rapture belief and the scriptures we've discussed do not mention an ascention . I also quoted scripture on the angel that was standing by the crowd as jesus ascended saying that jesus would return in like fashion . To me that means a descention .
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  A Paduan

  Can the Bible be used to disprove the Witnesses ?

  It's a pushover - but when you can, most likely they won't listen.
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  Perry

  After his resurrection the anointing took place and it was taught that those who conquered the world by preaching about jesus could also share in the co-rulership role. This did not include women obviously but only men ,

  Heathen,

  There were women prophets and deacons in NT church. On what do you base the assumption that women did not share the same hope as their male counterparts?
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  gumby

  Poor ol' Heathen.......the only thing he gets to look at in heaven is a bunch of burley men with wings. I'm plannin on goin to hell where all the babes hang out.

  Gumby
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  Perry

  If babes in hell are hot, are babes in heaven not?

  I'm so confused!
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  heathen

  perry --- True ,women were allowed to help in teaching but only to other women and were not allowed to teach men where as men are allowed to teach both sexes . Women were never instructed to do any public preaching or speaking in the congregations or publically . The spirit may have been poured out on some women during pentecost but that does not mean they were granted co-rulership status . When reading the new testament I noticed the changes in doctrine from acts and throughout the rest of the apostle paul letters , he went from being delighted by women that prophesied to discourging women from even speaking in the church . Anyway according to the WTBTS all heavenly ones look like men with beards .

  gumby --- women will be on earth not in hell . In a true paradise where they will likely be the most beautiful as ever , I don't think ugly women will be found there but genetically altered eye pleasing women . LOL
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  Dansk

  There's the small matter of the 144,000 in Revelation 7 and 14 where the WTS sticks to a literal interpretation of the number yet claims that all else in those chapters is symbolic. Huh?

  Great point, Ozzie!

  And as Raphael pointed out (WELCOME, RAPHAEL), Deut 18:20-22 is an excellent scripture as Watchtower has made sooooo many false predictions!
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  gumby

  Heathen, since spirits carry no gender, how do you arrive at your conclusion?

  You mentioned discrepancies in Pauls writings with the epistles.......do any red flags go up here? Have you not also noticed the bible is male oriented throughout? Every single child from noteworthy bible hero's came out as males first, girls second. Doesn't that seem odd to you? Does god controll birth genders too?

  You Heathen my friend are still caught up in Watchtower theology. There isn't one scholar on this planet who would agree with your conclusions on the destiny of christians as to where they will reside, nor your idea on two folds. Only in the mind of an alcoholic did such an idea begin and he was lucky enough to convince others. These others are known as Jehovah's Witnesses.

  Gumby
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  heathen

  gumby -- not true at all . In fact I went round and round on this topic with the study conductor and was demonized for my belief that women are not counted as members of the Israel of God . This has nothing to do with WTBTS theology . dems fightin words boy . You are sounding like the WTBTS by stating spirits have no gender . We know for a fact that jesus was a man . The angels of noahs day showed masculine traits by going after the daughters of men , I'm just stating a fact that the apostle paul was very inconsistent on the doctrine . I don't care if you believe or not .