Can the Bible be used to disprove the Witnesses

by jaredg 55 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Raphael

  I'm new to this site..so please be gentle...

  I have often visited and read various posts and only now garnered the courage to join.

  I am a second generation JW...but was df'd about 11 years ago, yet for many years I continued to believe it was "The Truth"..until I began a serious investigation into Watchtower history... a scripture that helped to set me free intelectually and emotionally was Deuteronomy 18:21-22.

  Also I found the folllowing course helpful in broadening my understanding of christianity :

  http://alphacourse.org
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  heathen

  Welcome aboard Raphael . People generally are gentle to newbies around here , it's only if they start pushing the WTBTS when we jump their case . I guess you are talking about the end time predictions that never came true with the deuteronomy scripture ? What really gets me there is the way they changed their doctrine to the world did end invisibly and people actually baught it . Jesus claimed rulership after his resurection not in 1914 which is another thing that can be proven scripturally ( mathew 28:18).
• 

  gumby

  Your father has challenged you to prove your lifestyle is approved from a biblical perspective eh?

  Why don't you use all the tools available to use the bible to show your father he's in a cult? Start with what the definition of false prophet is from the society's own statements, then use the bible to show him their own literature condems themselves. I believe it's an April 1st, 72 issue of the Watchtower.

  You might also have him explain to you "who" the slave class was that C.T.Russell recieved his food from since the slave class passes down the food to each succeeding generation. Russell was independent from all others of the slave class...and that doesn't fit the criteria.

  Gumby
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  heathen

  I don't think that russel could have been anointed myself. His teachings were clearly way off track and even by the WTBTS teaching that christ took time to decide during WW1 which religion he was going to accept , like who were the peaceable so he could anoint them and make them sons of God . According to russel everything was in place for the kingdom of heaven to rule man and destroy the worlds political system he was obviously wrong . From my understanding he was in the SDA religion to begin with and still used alot of SDA beliefs .
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  jws

  If I was going to argue with a JW, I would argue the issue about 607bce being the destruction of Jersualem. If you prove 607 wrong, then the whole belief system comes crashing down. Without 607, the end times prophecy of 2520 years doesn't end in 1914. That in turn means 1914 is wrong. If 1914 is wrong, it's all wrong. You don't have to prove any other date right, you just have to prove 607 wrong. This one isn't as simple as saying the Bible doesn't support not celebrating birthdays, but it carries much more weight. I mean birthdays...who cares? This is about your salvation, arguing about birthdays or can I have a beard is nothing compared to false prophecy and deception.

  This isn't about disfellowshipping or shunning, but in my opinion, it's a clear case where the JWs and the bible don't match.

  Jeremiah 25:12 "?And it must occur that when seventy years have been fulfilled I shall call to account against the king of Babylon and against that nation,? is the utterance of Jehovah, ?their error, even against the land of the Chal·de´ans, and I will make it desolate wastes to time indefinite.

  So..., after the 70 years are fulfilled, God will call to account the king of Babylon. Watchtower chronology says Cyrus attacked Babylon and killed the king of Babylon in 539 BC. Yet they claim that 70 years ended 2 years later in 537 BC. If 70 years wasn't fulfilled until 2 years after Cyrus attacked, why was the king of Babylon called to account 2 years earlier?

  Of course, if 70 years didn't end in 537 BC, they didn't begin in 607 BC. If they didn't begin in 607 BC, the seven Gentile Times didn't end in 1914. And you can take it from there.

  Here are some JW quotes to show what they believe on dates. This first one points to 537 in that it is the date of the decree of Cyrus that the Jews could go free (from which they back up 70 years):

  Watchtower 9/15/65 (and I'm sure there's more recent too) - Considering the events that are recorded in the ancient Hebrew Scriptures, there is one date that fully satisfies these requirements for a pivotal date. About other historical events mentioned in those times there are many disputes, but this date is one that can be well established from historical records. It provides us with a starting point by which we can place in our calendar the events referred to in the Hebrew Scriptures and also have corroboration for the fulfillment of some of the prophecies. That date is 537 B.C.E., the date of the decree of Cyrus the Persian giving permission to the Jews to return to their native land. The record of this event is found at Ezra 1:1-4:

  This one is more recent and shows that they believe (as well as historians) that Cyrus overthrew Babylon in 539 BC and that the king was killed:

  ip-2 (Isiah's Prophecies 2), Chapter 6

  5 In the year 539 B.C.E.?some 200 years after Isaiah records this prophecy?Cyrus does indeed arrive at the walls of Babylon to attack the city. (Jeremiah 51:11, 12) The Babylonians, however, are not concerned. They feel that their city is unconquerable. Its towering walls loom over deep moats filled with water from the Euphrates River, which forms part of the city?s defense system. For over a hundred years, no enemy has been able to take Babylon by storm! In fact, Babylon?s ruler in residence, Belshazzar, feels so secure that he feasts with members of his court. (Daniel 5:1) That night?the night of October 5/6?Cyrus completes a brilliant military maneuver.

  6 Upstream from Babylon, Cyrus? engineers have cut through the bank of the Euphrates River, diverting its waters so that they no longer flow southward toward the city. Before long, the water level of the river in and around Babylon falls so low that Cyrus? troops are able to slosh along the riverbed toward the heart of the city. (Isaiah 44:27; Jeremiah 50:38) Amazingly, just as Isaiah foretold, the gates along the river are open. Cyrus? forces swarm into Babylon, take the palace, and put King Belshazzar to death. (Daniel 5:30) In one night the conquest is all over. Babylon has fallen, and the prophecy is fulfilled to the letter.
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  FairMind

  Something that worked with my wife might work with your father. We all know how the WTS criticizes Bible translations use LORD or GOD instead of Jehovah in the OT. What the WTS does not tell anyone is that they have included Jehovah 208 times in the NT even though the name does not appear in the oldest available manuscripts.

  SO, dig up a WTS Kingdom Interlinear translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures and find the name Jehovah in the English portion and note the Greek word from which it was rendered. The Greek word will be the same word rendered as lord in other places in the Christian Greek Scriptures. Sometimes the work is rendered Jehovah and other times it is rendered lord (whatever suited the translators purpose). This is a real eye opener as it proves that the WT translators added-to or changed the NWT. Ask your father to explain why this was OK and what was the WTS’ motive in doing this.

  FM
• 

  Perry

  jaredg,
  

  My advice is to forget about using the bible. JW's are trained to skip from subject to subject with canned answers on a variety of subjects until you don't have an answer.... or at least until it would require serious time and logical thought to present. That of course is out of the question. You will fail in reaching your father using the bible.

  We had drilled into us 5 hours a week (more when you consider personal study of Wt literature and field service) all the answers to all the religious questions people could possible ask.

  I mean let's get real.... we are talking about people who have rejected the entire New Testament with all its promises from God (it was written to apply to only the 144,000 according to WT dogma) on practically nothing other than the fact that the WT says that it only applies to them. To believe this would require that God turn his back on the documented millions of Christians that lived and were martyred prior to 1935 when the door to God through the mediator Christ was officially closed according to the WT.

  The hard cold fact is that JW's do not know how to think nor to reason. Ever notice how they all give the exact same answers to even the simpliest of questions of a religious or philosophical nature? It's all just parroting.

  You will have to do two things in order to reach your father.

  1. You will first need develop a relationship with him and prove that you are really concerned and care about him. Don't mention anything religious during this period.

  2. You will need to confine your questioning to only the WT organization and resist the constant attempts to change the subject. You could easily compile hundreds of questions concerning the WT that he will be unable to answer since JW's are totally untrained to even think about consequences of WT history and current doctrine. They only know how to attack, not to defend.

  You'll have to be committed for the long haul ....probably years. The wheels of thinking turn very slowly at first. And oh yea, get into a good bible based church so you can find out for yourself about Christ, and then share that message with your dad after he practices thinking for a while.
• 

  Eyebrow2

  I think any christian religion today can twist scripture to make it fit their needs. I personally do not believe any longer that the bible is actually "inspired by God". I am sorry for you, but at same time happy that you realize the WTBS doesn't have to control your life. Good luck
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  heathen

  Perry I don't think they believe the door to christ was closed to people prior to 1935 just that the anointing ended . All people will be resurrected but there seems to only be a literal number of 144k that will be granted the co- ruler position with christ in the coming new system , people prior to 1935 will still be able to live on paradise earth . The WTBTS does make a sloppy mess out of the doctrine to the point they contradict themselves . I get the impression that you came to the conclusion that all those that lived prior to the 20th century and after 1935 are no longer qualified for eternal life ? I also disagree with the WTBTS and their cut off date and various other things about their doctrine on the 144k .

  As for the Daniel chpt 4 and the 7times it seems that it only refers to king nebuchadnezzar . The whole concept of multiplying 7 times 360 was an invention of the religion. There is no mention of a messianic kingdom only that God was ruler and would grant rulership to whom he chose .It was a lesson of humility for king nebuchadnezzar .IMO Even if we took the jewish calender and looked at a 7 year cycle it would still wind up adding to approximately 365 days a year because at the end of the seventh year they tacked on an extra month .
• 

  Perry

  Hi Heathen,

  Perry I don't think they believe the door to christ was closed to people prior to 1935 just that the anointing ended .

  Your comment is interesting. The two parts to your statement are the exact same thing. Read it carefully. This is the artificial division that the WT conveniently uses to make themself a false christ. To deny the annointing is to deny Christ and to make him a liar. Can you see how that teaching makes Christ a persona non grata Heathen?

  My charge was:

  .... we are talking about people who have rejected the entire New Testament with all its promises from God (it was written to apply to only the 144,000 according to WT dogma) on practically nothing other than the fact that the WT says that it only applies to them. To believe this would require that God turn his back on the documented millions of Christians that lived and were martyred prior to 1935 when the door to God through the mediator Christ was officially closed according to the WT.

  I never said nor meant to imply that, in the minds of JW's that the "door to Christ" was closed in 1935. To the contrary, how could that "door" be closed when in the WT view, all Christ did was to provide some divine cosmic legal loophole whereby people might have a chance to prove their worthiness to God by means of the system of decrees, edicts, customs, changing doctrines and false end time predictions and prophecies so lovingly provided by the real door to God.... the WTBTS?

  Are you getting this Heathen? A door to Christ became insignificant, inappropriate, and wholly unnecessary with regard of the new light that Christ had abdicated all his earthly authority to these men who, as I pointed out must assume that Christ turned his back on the millions of Christians who lived and were martyred for their love of Him during the previous nineteen centuries in order to make room for the few, the chosen, self proclamed channel of communication of God on earth. They falsely proclaimed that Christ's promises were limited to 144,000 souls and to only themselves at that time; and in so doing made Christ out to be a liar when he told Martha at John 11: 25 - " I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies". Where did all the people go who believed in Christ in excess of the 144,000 and were martyred prior to 1935 ?

  So, my charge above was in no way related to a door to Christ, but as I stated a "door to God". The true Lord Jesus states in John 10: 9 " I am the door". God would not erect another door in order to gather all things to himself would he? Especially stating that there is but one mediator between God and man.... a man Christ Jesus.

  Are you starting to see with your heart now Heathen what I'm getting at? What does it mean to open the "door" of Christ? What will it lead to? Could it be to our father who is in no other need of a channel of communication other than his Son the mediator and door that leads to his bosom and family.... our rightful heritage?

  Heathen are you understanding that Jesus didn't lie when he said at John 10:1 that - "he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way is a theif and a robber"?

  Heathen did you leave the falsely erected door because you were as Jesuse stated "A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers? Are you a sheep Heathen?

  May the peace and blessings of God be with you forever.