*just shakes head*
Gumby
Can the Bible be used to disprove the Witnesses
by jaredg 55 Replies latest watchtower bible
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heathen
perry --- jesus also said there were 2 folds of sheep that would worship as one , that's part of the WTBTS reasoning also and revelation distinctly mentions a great crowd and 144k with the seal of God . I don't have a problem with that part of WT doctrine . John 10:16 . Personally I accuse the leaders of the WTBTS of being the evil slave with all sorts of man made rules that don't amount to anything, they even teach that the congregants should gather together once a year to reject the symbols of christs suffering , this is entirely unscriptural .I agree they have alot of problems internally and with doctrine .
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redhotchilipepper
Obviously, they do it to themselves all the time through their own Watchower and Awake articles! They mislead themselves! They are like a bunch of dogs chasing their tails, only using the Bible!
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redhotchilipepper
I'm sorry, you will never see me post a scripture because right now I refuse to touch the Bible. That's how turned off I am with the JW's. They have made the Bible a serpent, fitting to the first story ever told. Adam and Eve!
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redhotchilipepper
The bible could definately be used to diprove the Witnesses but they put blinders on when they feel that you are an Apostate or non believer. So actually the answer would be NO.
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Perry
Good Morning Heathen,
you said:
perry --- jesus also said there were 2 folds of sheep that would worship as one , that's part of the WTBTS reasoning also and revelation distinctly mentions a great crowd and 144k with the seal of God . I don't have a problem with that part of WT doctrine . John 10:16 .
I know Heathen and that is what I picked up on right off the bat from your post. This one WT teaching and the twisted one about the FD&S appointment before His arrival, is utterly groundless and neccessitates the following:
1. Another Mediator other than Christ (requires rejection of all scriptures that counsels otherwise)
2. Reliance on only the 144,000 for the Holy Spirit (requires rejection of all scriptures that counsels otherwise)
3. Heirachial man-made authority structures (requires rejection of all scriptures that counsels otherwise)
4. Requires belief that God lied more than 95% of His followers prior to 1935. The WT offers no hope for the people who "didn't make it into the 144,000" In other words, in light of the fact that hundreds of thousands and likely millions of Christians were slaughtered and marytered for their belief in Christ, and in view of the fact that untold millions of people believed in Christ and dramatically changed western culture.... there would have simply have been no positions left if Jesus's promises aspplied to only 144,000 people.
So instead of believing in absurdity, negating the biblical New Testament, making God a liar, and painting salvation as a process that has a more than 95% failure rate;
It is much better to accept the definition, clarification and expansion John gives to this scripture just a few verses later in 11:51 & 52 - .."being High Priest that year he prophesied that Jesus was going to die for the nation, and not for the nation only, but in order that He might also gatrher together into one the children of God who are scattered abroad".
So the other sheep are those outside the Jewish nation. A simplistic reading of ACTS shows that God opened Salvation up to Gentiles.
Also the 144,000 are identified in Revelation as Jews, which is consistent with what John says above. The vast majority of Christians everywhere are in agreement with this. Just a simple statement that the WT twisted into a reason to not believe the bible nor personally believe Christ's promises..... nothing more.
This false doctrine completely hides Christ from view. A person simply reading the new testament would never come up with the thought that the NT was not written as a message to him personally. He would never come up with the idea that in order to get right with God he needed to tremble in fear when the Elders raised an eye-brow for some small perceived infraction. He would never in a million years, pester Christians at their homes and look for something that he could argue with them about in order to try and destroy their faith in Christ and bring them under the control of the "sole channel of communication of God on earth" and then imagine his own righteousness as he afterwards restfully naps in the solicitude of WT accolades.
Yet that is what all of us did.
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Perry
Heathen,
It sounds like you still want to hang on to some of the WT. doctrine concerning the 144,000 being the only rulers with Christ. Please explain scripturally why you feel the destiny of those who died after the 144,00 positions were filled will go straight to an earthly existence and not rule with Christ.
Christians generally believe that all Christians prior to the rapture are caught up to him at that time. Then, during the Great Tribulation man, under Satans control, without the buffering effect of millions of Christians, will make such a mess of the earth that untold more millions are expected to repent and acknowledge Christ's authority and invitation. Most will suffer martyrdom though. Then, the Church will come down from Heaven with Christ at his Second Coming (at the end of the tribulation) and will be co-rulers with him on earth during the 1000 year administration.
P. S. - I agree that the memorial is an abomination. It should be called the Mockery of Christ's death.
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heathen
perry--- I do agree that the WTBTS did take that scripture out of context after further review . It is talking about the jews and gentiles but I still believe there are 2 promises . The great crowd depicted as being in heaven are in heaven because heaven has come to the earth and not because of any rapture . It's clear to me that in revelation the great crowd have to survive the the tribulation and are not called to heaven prior to it . revelation 7: 14 .
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PinTail
Yeah, where should I start? I think I could get more wisdom from three babies rambleing on and burping on the stage giving a talk to the congregation, than any elders restricting their ideas only to the watch tower's thinking.
Shane
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Perry
Heathen,
First of all, it appears that we agree that the "other sheep" are not the same as the tribulation saints.
Other Sheep = Gentiles
Great Crowd = Tribulation Saints of Believers - Post Rapture
but I still believe there are 2 promises .
Heathen, only in a chronological sense, not in a sense of destiny . I believe there is strong reason to believe that the pre-trib saints are caught up to heaven with glorified bodies prior to the G.T. Christians were even to comfort one another with this hope. - 1 Thess. 4: 18. There are lots of examples of rapture in the Bible:
Enoch - Gen 5: 24
Elijah - 2 Kings 2:11
Jesus - Acts 1: 9
Philip - Acts 8: 39
Paul's friend - 12: 1-4
The Two Witnesses - Rev. 11: 3-12
It was actually the chief hope of the believer in the early church:
2 Thess. 5: 10
John 14: 3
2 Cor. 5: 8
Phil 1: 23
Col. 3: 4
It is widely believed that Revelation is divided into three general and chronological catagories:
The Church age (Pentecost to Rapture)
The Great Tribulation (Rapture to Second Coming)
The Millenium (Thousand year reign of Christ)
John was told during the revelation to "Come up here and I will show you what must take place after this" Re: 4:1. (or after the church age has ended, since Jesus had just previously finished counseling the churches) ) Many scholars believe that John himself was representative of the whole church age in part because when he got there he saw 24 elders already around the throne.
"The number 24 appears six times in the OT. In each of those times it is associated with the priests of Israel. On one occasion the entire nation of Israel was represented by 24 special priests. Just as these priests represented all of Israel, 24 elders will represent all believers from Pentecost to the Rapture" - Daymond R. Duck
By contrast, in Rev. 6:9 John sees "...underneath the altar...the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God". .... as opposed to "around the throne" as was the case of the 24 elders representative of the nation of king/priests of pre-tribulation overcomers.
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; 10 they cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?" 11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.
Unlike those those caught up to Christ during the Rapture with glorified bodies like Christ, these souls of slain believers during the tribulation are told to wait or "rest" until the the rest of the number of tribulation martyrs is filled. They are not rebuked for requesting retribution for their tremendous sufferings, but are comforted by being given a white robe (righrteousness).
It's clear to me that in revelation the great crowd have to survive the the tribulation and are not called to heaven prior to it . revelation 7: 14 .
I see no where that to "come out" has anything to do with "survive" in the sense that they will not be killed. They came out from the G.T. to reside under the altar "for a little while". It appears that all or most of the tribulation saints will be killed by satan's forces. When the number is complete, then God will answer their request to provide justice and avenge their blood. Not in the time that the saints would like, but only when the numberof tribulation martyrs is complete.
Regarding as to where the tribulations saints reside..... there are in the "temple"- 7:15. "All 16 references to temple in Revelation use the word that designates the inner shrine rather than the larger precincts. It is the place where God's presence dwells" - Foot note NASB study Bible
The concept of two destiny's is not taught in the bible.
1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband; 3
There is only one destiny for believers.... life with God. First in heaven and then co-ruling with Christ on earth. Each will share in administration responsibilities. As I see it, each will be both ruler and subject. A perfectly flat organization, the one utopianists imagine they can have by their own design apart from God.
The double destiny teaching by the WT simply creates a place for them to exercise their authority as a type of false Christ.
In a weak attempt to get back to the topic.... none of this has a chance in hell (pardon the expression) in getting through to a JW until first they see that the WT is not a trustworthy guide.