we're glad you are here too Brenda..
Suicide.... how do you view people who "attempt" it?
(((to all those who went there ... and for god sake are still here)))
this topic keeps on reminds me
"Ciryll" (one of Anthony's Friend - who was coming home once in while) we will never know why ... he didn't even look like depressed ... last time I saw him it seems that everything was Ok (with his cute face and smile) ... I wonder about his parent (who was a bit to much in the : don't do that, don't do this ... when most of the kids are allowed or are doing it anyway to get the boiling steam ou ... Not even JW (maybe something else I've never asked).
and "Irina" a JW sister that I was not that closed with who hung herself (without telling anything to anybody around at that time _ or did they kept on telling her crap that she couldn't stand anymore in knowing that she have lost her son because of it (familly mad at him because not in the thruth, he took the car and get his mortal accident) ...
In there memory ... (they were very nice ... A+)
As someone who attempted suicide 8 years ago., when a JW.
I can only give my side of it. I reached a point were with debts, trying to bring up a large family, being a JW etc. My mind finally blew a fuse, is how I describe it. I just did not see any escape from my problems. There probably was, but when severe depression sets in you become totally oblivious to any answers to them. I saw no other way than to end my life. I felt that my family would be better off without me. I felt I had failed them. Also that death would remove the depression from me, that feeling that any moment my head would explode.
Having gone through I now have tremendous sympathy for any one who has attempted or has committed suicide.
Sideline: I changed my avatar from a sunset to a smurf. Because I always find it hilarious that JW's (mainly in USA ) seem to find them so terrible and demonic.
On the first of the month my gf's baby brother took his own life at the age of 21. The last few years of his lifge were rough. Just in the past year alone he had 2 stints in jail, ws kicked out of 2 rehab programs and overdosed on heroin. He'd mentioned joining the Marines and saw the possiblity of being killed in action as "not so bad". Still I never thought he would kill himself. I think most fo his family thought life would end tragically for him, just never this way. One really bad morning was all he needed to just end it all. It's a shame because he had so much life still ahead of him, even if he did reach rock-bottom. It's just a real sad stituation all around.
As much as I agree that a great deal of sympathy should be felt for people who attempt suicide, I am still torn as to whether that sympathy may extend too far sometimes and it may have the tendency to allow the person to believe that they are not really hurting anyone. (By nurturing them, it's almost as if they will feel support and not change their ways.)
Here's one thing that happened with my suicidal father that seemed to screw with my mind for a long time:
When I was six or seven, I woke up in the middle of the night and my father was on our couch. He was upset, so despite not really being close to him, I went to comfort him. For some reason, eventually the whole family got up (four kids and mom and dad of course). What he ended up telling us was that he had taken a bunch of pills. I don't remember my older siblins being mean to me that night, but for some reason my father told the older kids to be nice to me because "if I hadn't gotten up to talk to him, he would probably be dead." (That statement also had the unfortunate effect of my siblings and I not staying very close to each other, even starting at that young age.)
I didn't necessarily consciously understand what devestating effect that statement had on me at the time, but my actions over the next twelve years or so prove it. Over that time I "saved" my father's life numerous times. Acouple of times it was running down to the river near our house to try to stop him or pull him out. Sometimes it was just asking him if he wanted me to go out with him for a walk when he had either insinuated or even said it flat out that he wasn't coming back. One time it was racing into town at over a hundred miles an hour to try to convince my mother to meet him and the ambulance at the hospital, since if she was not there to apologize, he would not allow them to pump his stomach.
Needless to say, likely mostly because of what I now realize was a very manipulative statement made when I was six or seven years old, I knew that I was responsble if he died.
To say that I am completely over that would be a load of horsesh*t, but I'm mostly saying this stuff to make this point. Despite these people being depressed and needing support, at what point do yo draw the line to protect the innocent? I know my father was an emotionally screwed up man, but I honestly feel that less harm would have come to the rest of the family and even he would have been better off if he had succeeded one of those times.
When my father did die of natural causes in 1997, I was sad, for sure. I still miss him a bit but as insensitive as some people may find this statement, my family and I would have had less baggage to deal with had I not woken up to talk to him that fateful day when I was six or seven. (I understand now that he likely would have not really died that night, but try telling that to a six or seven year old. I never even conceived that he was doing anything other than really trying to kill himself until I was about 21.)
I'll give the opinion of a man who's been there before, due to mental illness. (I still have my armband from my last psych ward visit on my wrist.)
There's something wrong with your body and mind, which is making it feel so bad, that it wants to go into shutdown mode. Usually, people who are the most prone to suicide are those that are too young for their bodies to accept a shutdown mode, so they force that shutdown mode on themselves.
With my case for suicide, my dad died, and when he passed away, I was barraged by an uncaring dubbie family and I was alone, and I couldn't keep a job because I kept on breaking down everywhere I worked.
So I decided to end it around March. Ironically enough, that was when an Apostofeast was held, and the Minnesota Apostates actually helped me survive the day I was going to kill myself.
Nice story, huh?
CRR & others on the board ((((hugs))))
There is really only one way to view folks who have gotten to this point in there lives. They need love & assurance that things will get better. How to reach them is another thing.
I always tell the same story! It goes along with some of the other comments. If I had a broken arm you would see my cast, and say wow I'm sorry! that must of been painful! But since you can't see how my insides feel! Then you may think ah! You must be diseased, Cause I can't see a thing wrong with you! If they can't 'see' it then therefore it must only be in your mind < you have made it up>
Now to think on the how long, how many times do we help people? thats tough for me. My Aunt ( who lived a thousand miles away from me) has attempted suicide several times. I always suggested her support system take her to the emergency room cause she needed 'help' they were angry with her for manipulating them. My mom her sister even decided it was all about her and was angry at the Aunt for putting her through it. So I think people could help her if they would think about someone besides themselves. She is not 'able' to help herself.
But for a man to subject his family to this act time after time is. IMO a selfish act, (and folks please see that comment in the light I mean it in, I am in no way saying attempting suicide is a selfish act!)
Several years ago my 26 year old brother-in-law shot himself. Had he been there when the news was broken to his mother. He could never have done what he did. Because the sounds that came from her were the most heart wrenching, heart breaking sounds I have heard. He loved her and had he not been in so much pain not been so depressed, he would not of subjected her to it. But he had his life in a mess, he could see no way out of. He on the other hand never indicated he would not make it through that rough period in his life. He just ended it.
His actions left a legacy. His brother three years younger than him. now uses that to manipulate my ex-mother-n-law. and one of his sisters. Everytime things get rough on him he says "I should do what Toby done" then none of you would have to worry about me. comments to that affect. His Mom is a nervous wreak over him all the time! he's in his thirties now and has never held down a job or kept a home for himself. But he will not see docs that might be able to help him. So he is using it for his own purpose now.
My 15 year old is better now, but there was a time when he wanted to 'Die' his words "not necessarily kill myself he would say but just die". Not meaning to sound like I joked about it. because I took it very seriously! I said to him "do you realize how much I would miss you if that happened"? he broke into tears, it seemed to be a breaking point for him also because then he began to question why he felt that way and why his Uncle would do such a thing. And btw he was born after I learned the so called truth <tm> he hated the wts from itty bitty and up. Now I understand why! as I talk to folks that have young 'uns his age or older and I see what they went through as being so simular. I see where the cult thing kicks in and takes over the thinking process. Handle this as we say. And in the end lose a precious life possibly.
Wonderful posts, all.
I think there are three kinds of suicidal people:
1) threatening for manipulation with abolutely no intent of trying it
2) manipulative and take action - and sometimes they "miss" and finally die. Just like the boy who cried wolf.
3) the person who really means it, whether they tell someone or not.
I had a male friend several years ago in AA. He had lost his job with the State Patrol for driving drunk on the job. Rightfully so. He also lost his wife. But after serveral years of sobriety, he was still unable to work for any of the police forces he applies to, and his ex- wouldn't give him the time of day.
One eve. he called. While just yaking, he told me he wanted to buy a bottle, get totally smashed, kill "her" and then off himself.
A week later I heard the same plans from him. Hearing them a 2nd time, the same plans, scared me because I believed he was going to do it. I asked a couple friends who were in the Psych business, and they said that if I knew someone was even just thinking of suicide, it was my responsibility to do something. (this was not trying to give me a guilt trip)
My friend had a serious anger problem. I was afraid that if I did something to help he'd be really angry with me. But what do I want, and angry friend, or a dead friend?
I called his number when I knew he was at work and got his mentally ill brother, who gave me their address.
I called the mental health hotline and gave them the story.
They went out the next day - my friend wasn't home, but they left some literature on his door.
My friend came up to me 3 weeks later and thanked me profusely with tears in his eyes. See, his intimate group of friends were giving him a bad time, telling him to just get over it. Well, he was in so deep that he couldn't just get over it. When the papers were left, he called. he got help. I don't know how, but he found out it was me that did it. He realized someone heard him and loved him enough to take the risk and report it.
1 year later:
He was engaged to a really neat gal, was on a local police force, and was so happy in his life. He, again thanked me profusely through tears, and I told him, through tears, that now it was his responsibility to pass it on.
Dealing with #1 and #2 above requires the same kind of tough love as #3.
If #1 and #2 got sent to a hospital and required to see a shrink, then maybe their contol issues would be uncovered, and just maybe they'll learn something. On #1 and #2 - don't handle it alone.... call the authorities! Drag 'em to the hospital. Whatever.
#3 is the biggie. DO SOMETHING! You may be the only person they confided in.
With hugs and love
I feel sad for someone who attempts suicide. They may be very ill, they might be in total despair, they could be crying for help,or they could simply have been unsuccessful but could succeed next time.
I've attempted, threatened, ideated suicide since I was seven.
I agree with the concept of the "shutdown" mode. I think that there is a point in the human frame when the brain initiates a certain "It's better to be dead" thing. I mean, it makes sense - it would help accept the inevitable when it really is inevitable. I think there are times when that "death instinct" gets switched on and left on despite the actual facts of the matter. Like an allergy - it's actually a hyperreaction on the part of the immune system to a nonexistent threat. Maybe a nonexistent "death situation" could trigger a hypperreactive "death instinct." Just my private musings on the strangest times in my life.
That being said - I can't imagine God judging a suicide because of depression any more harshly than somebody who suffocated because of an allergic reaction to bee stings. I don't know if we should judge it so, either. I mean, it seems like it is their choice... but how much so, really?
Everyone has to walk their own dark path. I do believe that there is little or nothing anyone can do to stop somebody from killing themselves if they are hellbent on it.