by Terry 213 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Terry, your post topic reads "WHAT IF WE DIDN'T POISON CHILDREN'S MINDS WITH FANTASY?"
You implied that fantasy is a poison.
poison 1a : a substance that through its chemical action usually kills, injures, or impairs an organism b (1) : something destructive or harmful (2) : an object of aversion or abhorrence- Merrian-Webster Dictionary
You are unbelievably patronizing.
For someone who enjoys discussing the issues, you haven't addressed any of my points. Don't bother, I'd rather not discuss this with you. I don't appreciate the patronizing tone.
Huge fonts just allways look like yelling to me. Mac does it too.
I'm with Euph, see ya.
Terry,
Results
One of Mack's subjects ("Sheila," No. 2) exhibited four of the seven fantasy-prone indicators, and another ("Arthur," No. 13) exhibited five; the rest showed all seven characteristics. These results are displayed in Figure 1.What am I missing here???
Nothing, except that the correspondence between raising children to be materialists and their later disbelief in gods or flying saucers is not 1:1. Contrariwise, I refer you once again to the case of Ian Wolf - an astronomer who has psychic experiences - and controls them, as well as using them to his advantage.
You raise the most hackles here with your repeated assumption that the Santa Claus story actually does harm. You haven't proved that to be so.
You have tried to shift the burden of proof on to "Santa-friendly" families, demanding that they prove "a lie" is somehow better than "the truth." But isn't it enough that this particular type of "not-true data" does no harm?
To return to your original post:
The laws of nature and physics are violated every few seconds in film and tv!
Yes; that is what makes cartoons funny.
Is it surprising that children are not only ignorant of HOW THINGS REALLY WORK
Children learn from experience how things work - not only the laws of physics but the unwritten laws of their culture. Only time can cure their ignorance.
but, they don't have patience and an appetite for fact when they get to the schoolroom.
How much patience, and at what age? This does sound a little like our old expectations of children at the Kingdom Hall.
I'm remembering my own early schooldays. I remember sometimes, even in kindergarten, having to guess at what my teacher meant and guessing wrong. I remember the physically exhausting labor of writing my own name the first few hundred times. I remember ease and competence in some areas, and years of endless bewilderment in others.
I remember how much I detested history in school - and how bad I was at it - against how much I enjoy it now. American schoolchildren are notoriously bad at history, partly because American history textbooks are so damn boring.
And I remember visiting my daughter's 4th-grade classroom, 30 years later, and wondering how the hell they could stand it for five hours a day!
how many children get to begin life without being exposed to every kind of fantastic story
My son came pretty close: He did not start watching TV regularly until he was about 3, and I was not consistently reading him bedtime stories until after that. He was raised without Santa Claus, since we were JW's.
But he had a coterie of imaginary frogs for a few weeks when he was about 18 months old. Until the day when he thrashed about with a screwdriver all around him and announced, "Frogs quiet" - meaning dead. Fiction is as natural as speech itself.
When a Jehovah's Witness comes peddling a "better" fantasy that avoids Hell and provides a Paradise Solution to all life's problems---well, who wouldn't buy such a tale?
Misery and fear drive the acceptance of that particular fairy tale. If my life had felt happier or less precarious when the JW's had come by, I would never have fallen for it.
GentlyFeral
Remember, I framed the discussion in terms of damage to children.
No you didn't. You specifically framed at least part of the discussion as to the effects of the JW "fairytale" on everybody here - including ME. I was raised as a Jehovah's Witness. Was a hardcore believer right up until they kicked me out. And you specifically said that learning the truth was worse than knowing it from the beginning. I'm just opinting out that in at least my case, and others I know, the dub fantasy had no lasting effects on my day to day life. How damaging could Santa be?
Get over yourself, terry. You don't have the truth now. You didn't have it back when you were a dub and you don't have it now, either. You think you know all these things that your new god science has told you, but guess what, he's gonna shit on you just like the dub god did.
CZAR
mpatrick says:Terry, your post topic reads "WHAT IF WE DIDN'T POISON CHILDREN'S MINDS WITH FANTASY?"You implied that fantasy is a poison.
It really would help you to actually understand my position if you read my first post. It says it all clearly. If you just read the header and____assume__the rest; I can't really be held responsible for leaps of imagination
Gumby raised this issue earlier in the thread. Read my reply:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/78441/1271576/post.ashx#1271576
Princess said:You are unbelievably patronizing.For someone who enjoys discussing the issues, you haven't addressed any of my points. Don't bother, I'd rather not discuss this with you. I don't appreciate the patronizing tone.
You won't bother to discuss this topic--but, I'm the one who is patronizing?
I am not too good to represent my views to you and defend my opinions. If things don't go my way I won't slam the door in your face. I invited you into the discussion in my first post. You are a guest in my thread. You are welcome here. But, if you are going to name-call and act out; I'm afraid I'll have to bid you good-bye sadly.
I didn't address any of your points? Excuse me, but, didn't you say you didn't "give a rat's ass..." etc?
Your "tone" is proper and mine is questionable?
Remember what Harry Truman said about the temperature and the kitchen?
gentlyferal says: You raise the most hackles here with your repeated assumption that the Santa Claus story actually does harm. You haven't proved that to be so.
Lying to children does no harm? And I have to PROVE that?
CZAROFMISCHIEF SAID:Get over yourself, terry. You don't have the truth now. You didn't have it back when you were a dub and you don't have it now, either. You think you know all these things that your new god science has told you, but guess what, he's gonna shit on you just like the dub god did.
Sigh. Is this your idea of a winning argument? You sound like a peevish child now all petulant and peckish.
I suppose I have to agree with you in order to have truth on my side?
Lying to children is a GOOD thing, right? Okay, you can't defend that; so you have to deflect the issue.
I was over myself when I WAS a JW. I didn't have a self; I gave it up and agreed with what everybody else thought. Is that what you prefer for me?
I have no idea what you are ranting about having a "new god science". I think you just want to be insulting. Well, go ahead. You started out discussing this subject very well and then just lost steam and became incoherent in your reasoning. Now it is down to insults and it reflects on your presentation badly.
You claim that being a "dub" had no lasting effects on you. I'm not so sure now. You've turned a perfectly pleasant discussion into Custer's Last Stand.
Now go pull the arrows out of your pants :)
CZAROFMISCHIEF SAID:Get over yourself, terry. You don't have the truth now. You didn't have it back when you were a dub and you don't have it now, either. You think you know all these things that your new god science has told you, but guess what, he's gonna shit on you just like the dub god did.
Sigh. Is this your idea of a winning argument? You sound like a peevish child now all petulant and peckish.I suppose I have to agree with you in order to have truth on my side?
Lying to children is a GOOD thing, right? Okay, you can't defend that; so you have to deflect the issue.
I was over myself when I WAS a JW. I didn't have a self; I gave it up and agreed with what everybody else thought. Is that what you prefer for me?
I have no idea what you are ranting about having a "new god science". I think you just want to be insulting. Well, go ahead. You started out discussing this subject very well and then just lost steam and became incoherent in your reasoning. Now it is down to insults and it reflects on your presentation badly.
You claim that being a "dub" had no lasting effects on you. I'm not so sure now. You've turned a perfectly pleasant discussion into Custer's Last Stand.
Now go pull the arrows out of your pants :)
go get him !!!!! I have about my fill of these. Any way lying to kids not good !!! imagination needed i.e fantasy
I'm sorry. This sort of treatment of children seems abusive to me. Teach children how to experience wonder in life WITHOUT hiding facts and without misleading them and without creating false hopes. That is a parenting skill with integrity to it.
When I saw this, I went on to read the rest of the thread, just hoping that you had apologized for these words along with the other insulting things you've said. You didn't. Instead you apologized for others not seeing things the way you do. It would also seem to me that you don't have a grasp on the reality of what is abusive to children and what isn't.
Call Child Protective Services. And tell them to toss my Mother and my Grandmother and me and my sister and brother all in jail for abuse. And our abuse goes even further as we'd go so far as my brother getting on the roof on Christmas Eve when the kids couldn't sleep and walk with a heavy foot. The look of wonder in their eyes thinking that Santa might be on the roof was something I'll never forget. And I'm certain we were even more guilty when one of the guys would dress up as Santa when we were all together opening gifts. Again- the look in their eyes was priceless.
And it's funny- I don't know of one person who has ever been traumatized by all of that. Not one. And I know of NO ONE who now has a problem discerning between fiction and reality because of all of that either.
There was no false hope created by any of that. And I would offer that if you feel that is poisoning a child or endangering them in some way it is your problem. Trying to compare it to thinking you won the lottery when you didn't is ludicrious. There is a "win". The gifts they are opening came from Santa- it wasn't a sick joke played on them and then nothing came of it. And I don't know of any children who really believed they could be Batman. There was just that one guy on that commercial.
And you might really want to talk to teachers also and get on their case about facilitating this abuse when they don't tell the kids in their classrooms that what their parents have told them about Santa or The Easter Bunny isn't real. Or when they encourage them to be creative with their minds and make up stories themselves or to read things like Harry Potter and ENJOY the fantasy of it all.
My mother was a teacher and she raised us with "What do you suppose.....?", always asking us to see where our minds would take us if given the chance. She gave us that chance and the creativity I have now I attribute to being taught to use my mind in that way.
IMO- taking away the fantasy and the wonder with the stories and the cartoons and the stuff that just plain isn't real, leads to more creativity and critical thinking skills and the ability to see the "gray" instead of seeing everything in black and white.
And if you think that my raising my child that way means that my parenting skills lack integrity, so be it. I think I'll look at how well adjusted my own child is for the real answer to that.
I have always figured that it was pretty much up to parents to decide what they wanted to do with their kids with regard to Santa and the Easter Bunny and the like. If they wanted to do that, cool- if not- no biggie. But I never thought I'd actually hear someone suggesting that I was being abusive by making the choice to do so.
You have insulted many parents here and your presentation comes off as totally arrogant, like your way is the way and you are the expert. And Euph was right. You hit a nerve. And it would appear that doesn't concern you at all. I hope this method of communication isn't something you are teaching your children.
XW of the "irritated with visions of sugar plums dancing in her head"
