by Terry 213 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
I think fiction and fantasy kept me sane as a kid and teenager. I picked up Dr. No in the 4th grade and it was all over after that! Kind of a place to get away from JWland. IMO children exposed to fantasy are more likely to use their imagination than not. Perchance to dream and all that!
SIncerely,
District Overbeer
Valis' comment reminds me of the probably thousands of sf (science fiction) and some fantasy books that i read while i was a jw. I loved reading all the latest scientific stuff too. That started when i was about 15 yrs old and lasted until i was 42. Immediately when i left the wt, i stopped reading sf, almost completely and slowed down on science. Maybe that was a fantasy outlet helping me to cope w the wt oppression.
S
I picked up Dr. No in the 4th grade
so that's what happened !!
Hey Terry,
Is this thread finally cooling off? I hope so.
I just wanted to invite you to the Seattle Post X-Mas Extravaganza (see thread) because...
SANTA WILL BE THERE!
THE REAL SANTA, DAMMIT! (spoken in Eddie Murphy's "Gumby" voice)
Seriously, come up and meet some of the people you inadvertantly pissed off. Break bread, down pints, discuss ad nauseum.
Steve
Steve Egner says:I just wanted to invite you to the Seattle Post X-Mas Extravaganza (see thread) because...SANTA WILL BE THERE!
THE REAL SANTA, DAMMIT! (spoken in Eddie Murphy's "Gumby" voice)
Seriously, come up and meet some of the people you inadvertantly pissed off. Break bread, down pints, discuss ad nauseum.
Seattle? Is that near Phoenix?
Remember, I live in Texas which is at least an hour's drive from Seattle!
But, seriously folks (bada-bing!)...I'd love to except for the distance involved and the risk of being lynched when I got there. Too bad we never have any meet-ups in my homeland; Texas, the land of roadkill and cousin marriage.
But, I really appreciate the invitation. Perhaps a video conference instead???
I assert that by filling little children full of fantasy and fiction from their very start we are poisoning their capacity to tolerate REALITY. Fantasy tastes better. It is a sugar-coated world.
It is not the exposure of children to fantasy that causes problems.
It is denying them access to the education and logical tools they should naturally acquire as they grow up which allows fantasy and unfounded conjecture to be distinguished from undeniable fact or reasonable supposition.
I would love big daddy god toi kiss it all better and make it okay. My logic and education leads me to believe this is rather unlikely to happen.
Without the logic and education, yes, of course big-daddy god taking your boo-boos away is attractive and you don;t realise the, shall we say, [problems with the idea.
More damaging than just general poor education and a lack of an ability to think critically is exposure to certain memes.
Memes are ideas. The idea, for example, that someone of the same species can be inferior to you because of their skin colour is a meme. Certain religious memes are analogous to white-blood cells. They are the defence system of illogical or unprovable belief structures. They vary from 'if we are being persecuted we must be right', to 'you can only trust what the Society publish; don't read science books, let the Society do it for you lest you be deceived', to 'there is a god because we have morals, to 'things have never been so bad the end must be near'.
These are the sort of thing which make otherwise intelligent adults cling to belief structures that are obviously wrong, such as those which interpret the Bible in a literal fashion over such events as the 'Flood' or 'Creation'.
It is damaging and controlling thought patterns long-ago inserted into many belief structures that make the lack of provision of definative proof seem reasonable that are dangerous, not little-red-riding hood.
self-protecting
Typically fairy tales have some kind of moral or mythic element to them. Othertimes they are some form of alternate reality where animals can talk, et. al.
But children are not stupid. Anyone who think they are is.
By the age of five many children will be aware not only have they never met a talking animal, but that they are not likely to.
Remember, I live in Texas which is at least an hour's drive from Seattle!
I live in Texas too, I'll be there....it's called airplanes Terry
But, seriously folks (bada-bing!)...I'd love to except for the distance involved and the risk of being lynched when I got there. Too bad we never have any meet-ups in my homeland; Texas, the land of roadkill and cousin marriage.
Never have any meet-ups in Texas????? Are you INSANE???? We have the biggest and the best in Dallas (they would be better in Austin but hey far be it from me to crititize ) They are planning another one in February for the Superbowl...and don't worry I doubt they will lynch you, I believe lethal injection is the perferred method nowdays.
I'm not a rationalist materialist, and I think fantasy is not poison at all, but essential to the human spirit. If we don't let them have fantasy, what will they have to fall back on in hard times? And doesn't fantasy allow us to dream of change too? It has a dark side, but to get rid of entirely would be throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
For me, though, Santa Claus is a different story. I have known a number of people who said that realising their parents had deliberately lied to them about Santa was a big and traumatic turning point in not trusting their parents' fundamental honesty anymore. I also don't like the reward/punishment aspect of the Santa story.
And most of all I worry that if I set up Santa as a benevolent, fatherly, all-knowing character (he knows if you're naughty or nice, that is a god-like fantasy), she'll be vulnerable to anybody who dresses up in a Santa suit till she's old enough to discriminate for herself what lies behind the beard.
We were at a Christmas market recently where this Santa guy was going around talking to the kids, and giving out presents. Then he started talking to my daughter, and what he was saying was appalling: that he was Santa and Santa knows more than all the daddies in the world and rubbish like that. She had been enchanted by him, but when he started in on that she got confused and disturbed. Of course we rushed her away immediately, with a few choice words for Santa, but it gave me a first hand look at how much power you could give the ikon of Santa by creating him as a real figure in your child's inner life. It scared the hell out of me.
I don't judge other people for doing it, but for me it's not worth it. She can have other magic. She can have angels and fairies and borrowers and tesseracts, but I will never tell her that Santa is more than a story some people tell for fun. Anyway, she'll still get the presents, which is actually the only thing I really missed as a JW child.
It strikes me that believing a child's Christmas fantasy is harmful shows just how difficult it is to brake the WT programing. There is absolutely no empirical evidence that belief in Santa is in any way detrimental to a child's emotional health. yet the sense of superiority the WT imparted to it's members regarding assertions like this one lingers long after one believes the programing broken.
Being unable to prove a negative one must prove Santa does not exist by proving there is no evidence his existence. To tell children there is no Santa because there is no proof of Santa wile maintaining that there is a Jesus or a god indicates a brake in the logic.
My darter asked me one time, "what is the God?" Not wanting to lie I told her "God is our shield against despair."
Hi again folks! I was away for several days without a pc and another poster told me this thread had gone on to several more pages!
There is little I can add to the banter and confusion over who said what and where and whether they really meant it that way or not.
However, I'd like to clarify a couple of my own points that may have been misunderstood:
Princess said in reply to a point in my thread...
The oldest would never believe me telling him fantasies about xmas (read: lies)So fantasies are lies? Is LOTR a fantasy or a big lie? Fiction = Fantasy or Fiction = Lies?
Obviously I totally disagree. I don't think it's wrong to not go along with Santa or the Tooth Fairy, but I do think it's wrong to call others who do "liars". It's a game people.
Angharad: My kids don't have to believe in Santa to get Christmas. There will be a ton of presents under the tree regardless. If they want one from Santa then they will have to go along with it because...it's a game.
I clarify that, only in telling my son that xmas (a fantasy) and in particular the personage and activities of Mr. Claus as being true, would in fact be lying to him. Please deny this as not lying to one's child if you truly believe differently. Explaining the 'story' of Mr. Claus as just that, a 'story' and 'pretend' is far different to me, and though I won't encourage it or promote it, sooner or later it'll come up from school and so forth and he will not have me encouraging or telling this lie as if Santa is real. (My choice) To illustrate using comparisons as you've done: LOTR = Fantasy (Cool), Santa Claus = Fantasy (Cool, if it turns your crank). LOTR as a real world you just can't see it = Lie, Santa Claus as a real person doing all the things he's described as doing = Lie.
If you took from my statement that xmas is, if told as true and real, at least to the childs mind, as 'calling others who do as "liars", then you've missed some steps as I meant no such personal conclusionto you or anyone else. You make your own conclusions as to what it is....I do not believe you are a liar, certainly if you told a 'lie' to your child, for a time about xmas, I do not believe it would be with any intent to harm, nor do I judge this as right or wrong, nor do I judge it as you now being a bad parent. Is it a lie or not to encourage your child to believe in something clearly untrue??? There is no judgement beyond that as this is not personal nor do I have the right to 'judge'.
Which is my next point. I delight in the imagination and fantasies of my children. I love science fiction myself, but when the questions are asked by my boys about the reality of such fantasies or stories, I stop at encouraging them to believe they are anything more than just a story, and instead explain that they are 'pretend'. The difference if very clear in my mind - enjoying the wonder of dreaming and fantasizing and labeling them as such, versus reality where there is no Santa, tooth fairy, or 2 Big Macs for buck (anymore)
As for how deep or how much you believe in fantasies, I say to each his own, and for those who've immersed their children in fantasy life, loving their children with quantity and quality time will likely be far more important to how balanced and adjusted they are as adults than whatever holdover of beliefs they have beyond the 'real' world, whatever that is. Really, isn't it this kind of unconditional love that sometimes has even saved family members out of the org?
boa...thankful he has that green armour on....its very fire retardant.....
