by Terry 213 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
I read that differently euph. I didn't see him objecting to "cartoons, science fiction and make-believe" per se, but instead stating that children are inundated with fantasy, including these things and that parents heap even more upon them with tales of Santa, etc. So, possibly because of these factors, maybe as adults some tend to accept some fantasies as realities more readily.
At least that's how I read it..
I also don't see why an apology is warranted..
Euphemism complained:
Terry... am I the only one who noticed that you completely changed horses midstream?
You started out by objecting, not just to fiction presented as fact, but to "cartoons, science fiction and make-believe".
Now, you've narrowed your claim to pointing out that children should understand the difference between fiction and fact. It's not fair for you to start out with a wild claim that impeaches all the standard fare of children as "poison", and then back down without any acknowledgment or apology to all the parents you insulted.
I began with a list of instances of fantasy a child absorbs.
We share something in common. We were all once FOOLED by the fantasy of Jehovah's story of his kingdom and how we'd all live happily ever after. Would you like to stand up and tell me that figuring out for ourselves that is was A LIE is better than knowing it ahead of time?
I guess I don't look at it as being "fooled" as much as being mislead. JWs believe that they have the "truth". Parents that tell their children fairy tales, knowing full well that it is fantasy, is different than a parent imposing their religious beliefs upon their children as "truth", especially with no room for doubt. I see a difference here. I don't think my children are going to suffer in anyway from believing in fantasy, now or in the future. I have yet to see a traumatized kid that had to go to a psychologist over believing in Santa (not saying it has never happened). It isn't so much what we believe in as how we react to what we believe in. I was taught to believe in Santa until I was four or five years old, then my parents became JWs. I grew up truly believing the JW religion, found out that it wasn't the "truth" and yet I am skeptical to believe in every conspirasy theory that comes my way, but still quite gullible in other things.
Who's to say that teaching fantasy to some can be quite innocent and will never progress anything more than what it is and that a child that is only taught the truth will fare much better? Do you think children in third world countries are at a better advantage because they see the harsh truth of life than my own children?
It would not be great
think of jules verne the kids he inspired the things that he predicted
I love sci fi it can predict the future altough
a real borg or matrix type future would suck
but i'm sterile so I don't care if it comes true it isn't my offspring that will suffer
Terry:
True statements made to children should not affect make-believe as long as it is clear which is which. The child can then choose fantasy for what it is. Mistaking it for reality is dangerous when it becomes a refuge and an alternate to living in a real world.
There is such a thing as the fantasy-prone personality. Taking your children to see "Santa Claus" is not going to make them any more prone to "susceptibility for hypnosis, possessing imaginary friends as a child, having psychic experiences, having out-of-body or floating experiences, vivid waking dreams, visions, or hallucinations, encountering apparitions, and receipt of special messages" than letting your boys play with dolls will turn them gay. See also "A Study of Fantasy Proneness in the Thirteen Cases of Alleged Encounters in John Mack's Abduction".
As Ian Wolf's experience shows, rational thinking and "fantasy-prone personality" can coexist in the same mind.
So it appears that volition in this matter is limited. I submit that children generally choose the real world over make-believe to the extent that they are able, unless the real world becomes intolerable. But the breaking point will not be the same for any two people.
gently feral
I don't think my children are going to suffer in anyway from believing in fantasy, now or in the future.
I totally agree.
How would you like to go around thinking you won the Lottery for awhile? Wouldn't you be ecstatic? Wouldn't you celebrate and jump for joy and feel like your whole life changed dramatically? Of course you would! Then, when the lottery checks didn't come in the mail...and you figured out you'd been fooled (for your own good by a friend who wanted to cheer you up) would you still be happy or would you be furious? WHY?
Actually, one of the funniest jokes in all of recorded Czar's history ran along one of these lines. My friend steve was given a fake scratch off ticket by my friend Eric. Upon scratching it all off it said he won ten thousand dollars. The pickup instructions included stopping by Uranus, and the final pickup instruction said VERY CLEARLY, "This is a fake ticket, you moron, stop reading." Steve had a good laugh, and here's the thing: Steve learned some amazing things about himself. During the half hour he was jumping around like a lunatic, he was promising to give Eric half the money for buying him the ticket. Now Steve knows something about himself that he didn't before, that he is a genuinely old-school nice guy. He also learned that he should read very carefully. He wasn't furious, he was happy - because he had the correct mindset to learn the lesson and get the joke.
I, for one, am willing to say that learning the truth behind the troof on my own was a rewarding experience and such a fundamental change for me that I could not conceive of giving it up or rewinding my life and living without it. I wasn't angry, I was sad at the people who felt compelled to live like they do.
I will not say that it is equally as rewarding for everyone, but neither is it as devastating as you have made it out to be for everyone. Sure, it sucked, but I learned from it and most importantly, learned to laugh at it, and moved on. Did I waste those years? parts of them, surely, but parts of them were spent doing things I might never have tried... like reading the whole Bible. On the whole, it was a no-score win for me.
CZAR
To each his own Terry. Personally, I think you try to hard to push your views on people. Using a huge font feels like you are yelling or trying to force something down my throat.
I guess I don't give a rat's ass what you think of Santa or whether or not I let my children believe. FWIW, I didn't choose the Santa thing, my son did. I was at the mall with my sister in law and niece waiting in line for my niece to see Santa. My kids were freaked out by him from birth so I made it clear we were there for Graysen and they were not expected to visit with Santa. At the last second my son bolted over and sat on his lap and asked for a specific present. It was Christmas Eve. Do I tell my son Santa isn't real and he won't be bringing "The Land Before Time" video or will there be a video under the tree from Santa? He was four. I will never think that I have "fooled" him or my daughter. They have been told that once you stop believing, he stops coming.
I grew up without Santa, birthdays and everything else. I always said I didn't care and basically I didn't because I didn't know any better. I never knew what I was missing. If asked I probably would have said the same thing your kids say, because I didn't have anything to compare it to. I can also say that living in Washington state is the best place to live but it doesn't mean sh*t since I've never lived anywhere else.
I don't think either way is wrong. Just don't tell me that I'm fooling, lying or poisoning my kids because I choose to raise them differently than you raise yours.
Good for you, you have seven kids that you have raised in three batches. I guess that makes you some sort of expert.
Princess, I use a bigger font because I think smaller ones are harder for some people to see. Especially if they're not wearing their glasses!
- When I was a little boy, I remember how silly I felt when I mentioned the present the "mouse" (French cultural equivalent for the tooth fairy) brought me in exchange for a fallen milk tooth, and one smartass classmate told me bluntly: "Do you really believe in that? There is no mouse, it's your parents who gave it to you." I was the youngest in my class by one year, and probably somewhat naive. Yet I didn't think for a second that my parents fooled me. I was ashamed of what I said, not what I believed. I think deep inside I was aware of the fictional character of the mouse: I wouldn't have expected to see or hear it in the night. But I was pissed for having my story destroyed by some "higher knowledge".
- Years later, I was working in a vacation camp for children and we organized a great game. One of the leaders appeared, very well costumed and made up, and told the children a daydream story before we all took them out in the forest to look for hidden treasures. Halfway one of the children recognized the guy, and told him "I know you're so-and-so", before the whole group. I thought this was the end of the fantasy. But it was not, because it was fun and all the children (including the "bright" one) quickly stepped into the game again. What I understood this day is that children not only know the difference between reality and fiction, but also have a wonderful capacity to skip from one mode to the other as they please.
- Years later, the Protestant church I occasionally attended asked me to help in Sunday school. I had done this before in other churches and I thought I could do it again. But something had changed: my daughter was about to be born, and while I attended the preparatory meeting for Sunday school teachers I suddenly realized that I would never want her to be raised in such a religious belief. Yes I would tell her about religion as just another story, but that was not what I was expected to do there (although this Church was a pretty liberal one). How could I teach something I did not want for my own child? So I called off (and this was the end of my churchgoing).
Bottom line: fantasy for children (which I think is very useful and even necessary) is not the same as beliefs for teenagers and grownups. When the first is supposed to grow into the other (as in religious teaching) this is no mere fantasy. Nobody believes in Santa Claus as an adult. There I draw the line (but it is just me).
Btw, my daughter enjoys visiting churches, she knows who is the guy on the cross and the mother with the baby, she makes the crib for Christmas, but she can step in and out of the story as she likes.
