by Terry 213 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Satanus


    No, i didn't mean that, i agree w what the flock said. My first post on this thread said the same thing, and i gave a bit of my experience in having fantasy in my childhood shot down. I was just trying to help out our young friend terry here


  • Terry

    Okay, settle down. The vigilantes are restless!

    I'm just yanking your collective chains.

    This is the JW DISCUSSION forum right? It means we discuss. But, some people cannot discuss without having their hands held and a cold compress laid on their forehead when they get feverish.

    So, I offer peace. We can't discuss; so we'll just walk away without hacking each other to shreds.

    Everybody has an emotional investment in their point of view.

    I meant to keep it on an intellectual level. (i.e. non-emotional and rational)

    But, it is no longer possible.

    So, close the thread and we'll all pretend we agree.

    I extend to you the peace pipe..................

  • Simon

    Kids don't really believe in Santa, they believe that Christmas happens and they get presents but they know there is no santa.

    At least ours do !

    Jeez, a kid would have to be a bit stupid to really believe that some fat guy called at all the houses at night, could get down the chimney (esp. when you have gas central heating) and somehow knows exactly what you want.

    Kids simply 'humour' mum and dad, that's all. They will do it all the more if you tell them that they won't get presents unless they believe. Jeez, that is setting them up for a life of religious manipulation and blackmail.

  • Panda

    Simon, I agree totally. And as with Santa also all of the other imagined beings. Kids know they aren't real. Stories are just that stories.

  • Angharad
    And as with Santa also all of the other imagined beings. Kids know they aren't real. Stories are just that stories.

    Yes I agree, kids are smart and can see through things. We have never told ours that Santa is not real but they know. That doesn?t change the fact that they get really excited when they see pictures of Santa or things on TV etc - but that is purely because of what Santa represents, not because they believe in him. A nice time, presents, decorations and fun things in school etc. If someone tells their kids that they have to believe in Santa to have Christmas, well of course the kid is going to say they believe.

    Along the same lines:

    When Liam was 5 he had an accident in school and knocked out his front tooth. It was the first tooth he had lost so the story of the tooth fairy had never come up. Anyway the school rang me and asked me to come and pick him up because he was upset. When I got there he was sitting in the office with the headmaster, who was telling him that the tooth fairy would visit him tonight. Liam was looking at him as if to say ?What the hell are you smoking?? I didn?t say anything. We left school and were walking home and Liam said Mr XXX said that the tooth fairy would come and visit me tonight and give me some money , that?s stupid ? fairies aren?t real, but can I have some pocket money !

  • teejay


    I think you make some valid points (in the sense that children are inundated with fantasies, myths, half-truths and outright lies) but overstate the harm that's done to them. Same with adults, as most adults live with ideas that are not exactly truths but are no worse for wear.

    Raised as a Dub, I wasn't taught to believe in santa but I know a lot of kids who were ? kids who did, in fact, believe in Santa Clause ? and seemed to get beyond the experience relatively unscathed. I remember in the fourth grade when Ms. Donaldson read to us about a talking pig named Wilbur and a spider named Charlotte in E.B. White's classic Charlotte's Web. Now, we weren't the smartest collection of kids, I'll admit, but I doubt any of us gave spiders a second look after the book was finished. We knew what was fantasy and what was reality.

    Still, belief in fairy tales has its advantages and *does*, in fact, assist in living. I'll give you an example...

    Personally, I don't believe in a bible god. As a result, I seriously doubt that I will live forever ANYWHERE after I die. It's a disheartening prospect after living for 30yrs thinking otherwise, but there it is. As I've written on this forum before, hopefully just before breathing my last I will be surrounded by those that love me and those that I love. I will expire with the knowledge that I am seeing them for the last time. I do not look forward to that eventuality.

    My JW mother in the exact same predicament, OTOH, will die with the comfort of "knowing" she will see all of us (or most of us) again when she awakes into a Paradise Earth? from her temporary sleep. She is deluded, I believe, but her delusion aids her to cope with the problems/eventualities of this life. I believe delusion assists children, too. Helps them (us) learn compassion, as Charlotte's Web did; learn the meaning of friendship and belief in oneself, as The Wizard of Oz did; and many other lessons as well.

    Instead of poisonous and lethal, I consider fantasy... in measured doses, to be healthy and life-giving.

  • Terry
    teejay says:
    --- Terry,

    I think you make some valid points (in the sense that children are inundated with fantasies, myths, half-truths and outright lies) but overstate the harm that's done to them. Same with adults, as most adults live with ideas that are not exactly truths but are no worse for wear.

    Well presented, teejay.

    I guess I'm looking at the crazy beliefs of adults with fully formed intellects and scratching my head wondering how they could actually buy in to them. UFO kidnappings, just a small example, requires an imagination + total intellectual collapse to believe. It just seems to me that somewhere in childhood the child was (setup) prepared for nonsense in a way that made it palatable.

    Your points are well taken.


  • Pole

    I once read a book on the art of arguing.

    There was a shortlist of topics which when brought up are almost 100% sure to get you into trouble. They wreak emotional havoc with most people no matter how simple your point is and how rational you'd like your debate to be.

    I was surpsrised that the issue of bringing up children scored at 3d position in the list- just after religion and politics.

    Now I know why.

    Oh Terry,

    You BIG-FONT intimidator.

  • itsallgoodnow

    Santa Claus = fantasy and imagination? Fantasy and imagination isn't a bad thing, but kids don't need Santa Claus to have it. I never had Santa Claus growing up as a JW, but I still had loads of imagination.

    If I ever have a kid, I wouldn't lead him on about Santa Claus. I see the whole Santa Claus thing as a way to get kids used to thinking in terms of imaginary allies in the sky. Isn't Santa Claus supposed to be watching everybody, rewarding the good and punishing the bad? I wouldn't feel right about starting a kid's mind working that way. If he wants that for himself later, fine, but I'm not going to put it there for him.

    So, I guess I can understand Terry's views, and honestly I can't see how his posts caused so much irritation and trouble. For some skeptics, it's commonly understood that these types of myths taught to children are designed to get them to more readily accept religious teachings later (even if their parents were not really trying to do that). I tend to agree with that, and I saw it as the whole point of what Terry was saying. Although, I can also see how some people would be touchy about that too, if they would prefer that we all be religious believers.

  • Xena


    Below are the online basics you need to minimally become familiar with in order to be taken seriously in your online communications.
    1. Do not type in all caps. Typing in all caps is considered yelling or screaming online. Those who type in all caps are perceived as lazy and not being considerate of those who will have to read their e-mail. Various studies on the topic reflect that it is more difficult and takes longer to read text that is typed in all caps. And for those who question "What studies?" here is one example for your reading pleasure:


      Searching for words is faster with uppercase characters, but reading of continuous text is slower (Vartabedian, 1971), perhaps because interline masking is greater with uppercase (Nes, 1986). In addition, lowercase enhances reading efficiency because word shape is helpful in word recognition (Rudnicky & Kolers, 1984).

      One is free, at their convenience, to review the entire document above which goes into detail about how eyes react to what they have to read based on how the content is presented.

    Stating certain professions are required to type in all caps (that's the first time I've heard that one) does not jive either. Would you send any off-line communications in all caps - the answer is probably no

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