Not a Jehovah's Witness, but studying.

by scoobie 153 Replies latest members private

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  amac

  I tend to agree with you, however do you think that all victims should be compelled to testify?

  I think if you are in authority over a flock of people (often about 100 people in a congregation) and one of those sheep comes to you hurt and confused on what to do about a sex crime to their loved ones, you report it to the authorities immediately, don't just recommend it. Who else has the professional expertise to put a stop to a sexual criminal? Certainly not the elders.

  Even more importantly, I think if you have authority over a flock of 6.5 million, and they come to you hurt and confused, you certainly don't recommend the elder "walks away" in order to save face in the media and keep "Jehovah's name clean." When did Jehovah ever allow sin to continue among his people just to save face? Quite the opposite according to the Old Testament.
• 

  amac

  By the way Shadow, I am neither disfellowshipped or disassociated, so don't feel guilty talking to me (I doubt you would anyway since you are on this site.)

  I hope to hear your comments and thoughts on my last post...
• 

  amac

  By the way, Welcome Scoobie,

  I didn't mean to hijack your thread, I hope you don't mind...I meant to post this before responding to Shadow...

  I'm glad to hear that you are asking these important questions before you were baptized. The JW's reactions to these questions change drastically once you are baptised. The four concerns you posted Disfellowshipping, Blood, 1914, 144,00 and sex abuse were actually all the same things that made me start to question my own religion of 30 years. Unfortunately for me, I can't just stop "studying." I currently am on the verge of losing contact with life long friends and family if I do not remain "incognito" as far as my questions are concerned...
• 

  shadow

  amac:

  I think if you are in authority over a flock of people (often about 100 people in a congregation) and one of those sheep comes to you hurt and confused on what to do about a sex crime to their loved ones, you report it to the authorities immediately, don't just recommend it. Who else has the professional expertise to put a stop to a sexual criminal? Certainly not the elders.

  What if that victim is already suicidal and does not want anyone to know? I would urge them to get professional help for the victim and that professional would quite likely be a mandatory reporter. By going that route, the victim is hopefully in the care of a qualified individual. However, if the victim were poor and had no insurance, I really don't know what the quantity or quality of professional resources would be.

  No, elders are neither qualified nor have the authority to stop the criminal, which often can only be done by putting them behind bars.

  Even more importantly, I think if you have authority over a flock of 6.5 million, and they come to you hurt and confused, you certainly don't recommend the elder "walks away" in order to save face in the media and keep "Jehovah's name clean." When did Jehovah ever allow sin to continue among his people just to save face? Quite the opposite according to the Old Testament.

  Agreed.
• 

  PurpleV

  I just don't see any point in continuing to study and take up not only their time but mine

  Well, they might. JWs are required to meet a "quota" of hours spent preaching per month or they are considered "weak" if they don't meet that quota. Every hour spent with you means an hour they don't have to go door to door to meet the quota.

  I'm glad you decided to stop. But as already mentioned, be careful if your kids still associate with JW kids. JWs are often known for reaching the minds of children and by the time the parents find out, the damage is done and they have been sucked in.

  You should try the Episcopal Church. It's tenet is that your religion should be one part scripture, one part tradition, and one part your own reasoning. It is non-judgmental, very active in charitable activities, and they have great music It's Christianity without the guilt of many other denominations, and the worship service is very beautiful and moving.

  Good luck!
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  Big Tex

  What if that victim is already suicidal and does not want anyone to know?

  All the more reason for the offender to be reported to the police. Sexual abuse takes place in the dark and quiet, offenders count on victims keeping quiet out of fear or shame.

  I'm a survivor and I was suicidal at the time I was dealing with it. I cannot tell you how much it would have helped to have had support from the elders or at least friends in the congregation. Unfortunately I had just the opposite.

  would urge them to get professional help for the victim and that professional would quite likely be a mandatory reporter

  Isn't this pushing off responsibility just a bit? Didn't Jesus teach that following the letter of the law, especially if others are hurt, is wrong? Doesn't common sense have to come into play? When the disciples gathered grain on the sabbath, which technically broke the law, Jesus had no problem with it. There are times in life when men of good conscience must stand up and be counted.

  I'm curious though, would you take this same position if the subject were murder? In other words, if a man were accused of murder, and there was only one witness who was suicidal from fear, would you advocate the elders not report this to the police?

  elders are neither qualified nor have the authority to stop the criminal, which often can only be done by putting them behind bars

  On this then, we agree. All the more reason there should be urgency in reporting the crime. I know of a case wherein the offender molested multiple children. Only one had the courage to defy the elders and report the crime. The offender was convicted, and sent to prison (although no action was ever taken against him by the elders even after his conviction). If the one brave child and her parents had listened to the elders, and given in to their intimidation and threats, this offender would have continued abusing children.
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  bebu

  I would urge them to get professional help for the victim and that professional would quite likely be a mandatory reporter.

  So would I! But it seems that the WT discourages people from seeking professional help, as it is from the 'world' and not the elders. And this system is not only inconsistent, but has left a terrible wake of unhelped victims, unprotected children, and protected suspected perpetrators.

  Then, those who complain or take action for children get disfellowshiped. (At least the Catholics didn't excommunicate the boys who brought forth their charges against the priests and the church!)

  bebu

  PS: I am not a primary poster here, would someone else (amac or undercover or Big Tex?) begin a thread for this discussion and post the link here so followers could continue?
• 

  undercover

  PS: I am not a primary poster here, would someone else (amac or undercover?) begin a thread for this discussion and post the link here so followers could continue?

  I think Big Tex is the man for the job. He's a forum assistant.
• 

  shadow

  All the more reason for the offender to be reported to the police. Sexual abuse takes place in the dark and quiet, offenders count on victims keeping quiet out of fear or shame.

  I'm a survivor and I was suicidal at the time I was dealing with it. I cannot tell you how much it would have helped to have had support from the elders or at least friends in the congregation. Unfortunately I had just the opposite.

  Isn't this pushing off responsibility just a bit? Didn't Jesus teach that following the letter of the law, especially if others are hurt, is wrong? Doesn't common sense have to come into play? When the disciples gathered grain on the sabbath, which technically broke the law, Jesus had no problem with it. There are times in life when men of good conscience must stand up and be counted.

  If elders are indeed unqualified to deal with a victim who is suicidal, I would advise them to go to a professional before I disregarded the victim's wishes and went to the police. If the victim refused to go for professional help, I would myself seek the advice of a professional. Since I am not trained as a mental health professional, I do not believe that you could characterize this as pushing off responsibility.

  I'm curious though, would you take this same position if the subject were murder? In other words, if a man were accused of murder, and there was only one witness who was suicidal from fear, would you advocate the elders not report this to the police?

  I really think there are too many variables to be able to answer this hypothetical situation.

  On this then, we agree. All the more reason there should be urgency in reporting the crime. I know of a case wherein the offender molested multiple children. Only one had the courage to defy the elders and report the crime. The offender was convicted, and sent to prison (although no action was ever taken against him by the elders even after his conviction). If the one brave child and her parents had listened to the elders, and given in to their intimidation and threats, this offender would have continued abusing children.

  I don't have knowledge of the particulars in this case that you are referring to. Is this the Fitzwater(?) case?
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  Big Tex

  I started a new thread here:

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/9/75484/1.ashx