For shadow

by Big Tex 52 Replies latest members private

  • Big Tex
    Big Tex

    I'm starting this thread as I, and others, have hijacked scoobie's thread long enough. Here is the link to the original discussion as started by shadow and amac:

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/9/75394/6.ashx

    However there has been an interesting discussion with shadow that I would like to continue. So far it has been civil and I would like it to stay that way. If there are any insults or provoking posts, they will be edited and/or deleted as shadow has expressed concern.

    So far we've been talking about one subject (the Society's policy on reporting and handling of child abuse) and, to be fair and avoid overloading shadow, I would like this thread to stay with one topic.

    Thanks.

    Chris

  • Big Tex
    Big Tex

    I cannot move posts over, so I will copy shadow's last response (to amac) here:

    shadowRe: Not a Jehovah's Witness, but studying.
    Post 42 of 42
    since 17-Feb-03

    amac:

    I think if you are in authority over a flock of people (often about 100 people in a congregation) and one of those sheep comes to you hurt and confused on what to do about a sex crime to their loved ones, you report it to the authorities immediately, don't just recommend it. Who else has the professional expertise to put a stop to a sexual criminal? Certainly not the elders.

    What if that victim is already suicidal and does not want anyone to know? I would urge them to get professional help for the victim and that professional would quite likely be a mandatory reporter. By going that route, the victim is hopefully in the care of a qualified individual. However, if the victim were poor and had no insurance, I really don't know what the quantity or quality of professional resources would be.

    No, elders are neither qualified nor have the authority to stop the criminal, which often can only be done by putting them behind bars.

    Even more importantly, I think if you have authority over a flock of 6.5 million, and they come to you hurt and confused, you certainly don't recommend the elder "walks away" in order to save face in the media and keep "Jehovah's name clean." When did Jehovah ever allow sin to continue among his people just to save face? Quite the opposite according to the Old Testament.

    Agreed.

  • Big Tex
    Big Tex
    What if that victim is already suicidal and does not want anyone to know?

    All the more reason for the offender to be reported to the police. Sexual abuse takes place in the dark and quiet, offenders count on victims keeping quiet out of fear or shame.

    I'm a survivor and I was suicidal at the time I was dealing with it. I cannot tell you how much it would have helped to have had support from the elders or at least friends in the congregation. Unfortunately I had just the opposite.

    would urge them to get professional help for the victim and that professional would quite likely be a mandatory reporter

    Isn't this pushing off responsibility just a bit? Didn't Jesus teach that following the letter of the law, especially if others are hurt, is wrong? Doesn't common sense have to come into play? When the disciples gathered grain on the sabbath, which technically broke the law, Jesus had no problem with it. There are times in life when men of good conscience must stand up and be counted.

    I'm curious though, would you take this same position if the subject were murder? In other words, if a man were accused of murder, and there was only one witness who was suicidal from fear, would you advocate the elders not report this to the police?

    elders are neither qualified nor have the authority to stop the criminal, which often can only be done by putting them behind bars

    On this then, we agree. All the more reason there should be urgency in reporting the crime. I know of a case wherein the offender molested multiple children. Only one had the courage to defy the elders and report the crime. The offender was convicted, and sent to prison (although no action was ever taken against him by the elders even after his conviction). If the one brave child and her parents had listened to the elders, and given in to their intimidation and threats, this offender would have continued abusing children.

  • shadow
    shadow

    This will be really hard to keep up with.

    I posted again on the other thread, before I saw this one. Can you move that one too?

  • Big Tex
    Big Tex

    Yes of course. I think we posted at the same time.

    shadowRe: Not a Jehovah's Witness, but studying.
    Post 43 of 43
    since 17-Feb-03

    All the more reason for the offender to be reported to the police. Sexual abuse takes place in the dark and quiet, offenders count on victims keeping quiet out of fear or shame.

    I'm a survivor and I was suicidal at the time I was dealing with it. I cannot tell you how much it would have helped to have had support from the elders or at least friends in the congregation. Unfortunately I had just the opposite.

    Isn't this pushing off responsibility just a bit? Didn't Jesus teach that following the letter of the law, especially if others are hurt, is wrong? Doesn't common sense have to come into play? When the disciples gathered grain on the sabbath, which technically broke the law, Jesus had no problem with it. There are times in life when men of good conscience must stand up and be counted.

    If elders are indeed unqualified to deal with a victim who is suicidal, I would advise them to go to a professional before I disregarded the victim's wishes and went to the police. If the victim refused to go for professional help, I would myself seek the advice of a professional. Since I am not trained as a mental health professional, I do not believe that you could characterize this as pushing off responsibility.

    I'm curious though, would you take this same position if the subject were murder? In other words, if a man were accused of murder, and there was only one witness who was suicidal from fear, would you advocate the elders not report this to the police?
    I really think there are too many variables to be able to answer this hypothetical situation.

    On this then, we agree. All the more reason there should be urgency in reporting the crime. I know of a case wherein the offender molested multiple children. Only one had the courage to defy the elders and report the crime. The offender was convicted, and sent to prison (although no action was ever taken against him by the elders even after his conviction). If the one brave child and her parents had listened to the elders, and given in to their intimidation and threats, this offender would have continued abusing children.
    I don't have knowledge of the particulars in this case that you are referring to. Is this the Fitzwater(?) case?
  • shadow
    shadow

    I really should have made it clear that I am not a JW that will even attempt to hide or justify past mistakes or injustices committed either by individual parents, elders or WT. On many points I would likely find myself agreeing with you. This might disqualify me as being the sort of JW apologist who will not admit to errors that you might prefer to have this discussion with. Of course, that sort of person is highly unlikely to read or post anything here.

    Having said that, it seems to me that most of the problems of the past have been dealt with.

  • undercover
    undercover

    You won't hide or justify past mistakes or injustices. Okay, that's logical and sensible. I can see also that you have an independant streak that most JWs aren't allowed to express. You have a good brain and you use it.

    What keeps you in the organization? What is it about JWs that makes you think that it's the "true" religion? I'm not trying to argue. I really want to know. What keeps you in after knowing all that's wrong with the WTS?

  • bebu
    bebu

    I am not so sure if those problems in the past are over and done with. For one thing, why aren't whistle-blowers reinstated if they were right afterall? Why won't the WT disclose its file of over 23,000 reported abusers?

    Let's compare with the Catholic church. The policies of both Catholic and WT were BAD. Perhaps neither really understood the deep problems their policies would create. The WT, during the Catholic church scandal, gleefully pointed and scorned the church and presented itself as far superior. But when the dirty laundry started coming out, they began to excommunicate people who showed that their own policies were flawed.

    To my knowledge, none of these victims or families or elders who challenged the pressure to remain silent if there was not 2 victims or a confession were ever reinstated. No apologies ever issued for wrongly disfellowshiping, either. This is a glaring omission still today, and I think I would be waiting a long time for this to ever happen. So, it's really not done with, even if they did get their policies corrected (which hasn't completely happened yet either).

    bebu

  • amac
    amac

    Thanks for starting the new thread Big Tex...

    Hi again Shadow -

    What if that victim is already suicidal and does not want anyone to know? I would urge them to get professional help for the victim and that professional would quite likely be a mandatory reporter. By going that route, the victim is hopefully in the care of a qualified individual. However, if the victim were poor and had no insurance, I really don't know what the quantity or quality of professional resources would be.

    No, elders are neither qualified nor have the authority to stop the criminal, which often can only be done by putting them behind bars.

    Well if the victim didn't want anyone to know, they probably wouldn't be approaching the elders about it. If someone approaches the elders, that means that someone knows about it and wants it stopped. Notifying the authorities does not mean the victim has to testify or tell anyone anything. The authorities will determine if there is a legitimate case and if there is any immediate danger. Whether the victim wants to testify or go forward with it is completely up to them and will usually determine what action the authorities will take.

    Again, if a victim is approaching the elders, it is because they are looking for help, not because they do not want anyone to know.

    I think that if the society had a mandatory reporting policy, you would see a decline in child abuse, not an increase in suicides.

  • shadow
    shadow
    What keeps you in the organization? What is it about JWs that makes you think that it's the "true" religion? I'm not trying to argue. I really want to know. What keeps you in after knowing all that's wrong with the WTS?

    1. believe in God

    2. believe in Bible

    3. some basics - Trinity, hell, soul, etc.

    4. no part of world - morals (generally), no war

    5. emphasis on hope of God's Kingdom

    6. exercise faith by talking to others

    7. international brotherhood

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