Herk,
If there is no such thing as mystery, perhaps you could tells us how God had no beginning and will have no ending. And how the universe was created out of nothing.
All About The Trinity
by UnDisfellowshipped 287 Replies latest watchtower bible
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ellderwho
If there is no such thing as mystery, perhaps you could tells us how God had no beginning and will have no ending. And how the universe was created out of nothing.
My point exactly, only less words.
I suspect we'll see a cartoon of this mystery.
E
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UnDisfellowshipped
Herk seems to love using the 1 + 1 + 1 = 3 argument.
So, lets see if Herk can reply to this question?
What does 1 + 1 equal? You would say 2, right? But what does the Bible say?
John 10:29-30: My Father [...] is greater than all [...] I and [my] Father are ONE.
Mark 10:6-8: But from the beginning of the creation, God 'made them male and female.' 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become ONE flesh'; so then THEY ARE NO LONGER TWO, BUT ONE FLESH.
So, Jesus Christ taught that 1 + 1 can equal 1, and yet, Herk claims that 1 + 1 + 1 cannot equal 1?
The Christian Church (Christ's Body) is ONE BODY, but it is made up of many distinct members.
Link said:
I have a friend. He is a Batonka tribesman who finds it very difficult to read English and cannot find similar material in his own language. Consequently he did not get past the first paragraph of Undisfellowshipped's first post on this thread before he found himself completely lost and totally confused. (it took me quite a few paragraphs more to reach the same stage).
My friend does not believe the Trinity Doctrine because (like me) he cannot understand it. He would like to ask the contributors to this thread if this completely debars him from ever becoming a Christian ? Born Again, JW or otherwise?
Any takers?
You can be Born Again and Saved without having a good understanding of the Trinity. However, I do believe it is necessary to believe that Jesus is God in order to be saved, because of what Jesus Himself stated in this Verse to the Pharisees:
John 8:24: "I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins: for if you do not believe that I AM, you shall die in your sins."
John 8:28: Then said Jesus to them, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you shall know that I AM, and [that] I do nothing of myself; but as My Father has taught Me, I speak these things."
John 8:58: Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham was, I AM."
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Leolaia
LittleToe....Some days I think my brain is gonna explode....
UnDisfellowshipped: I love your very simple refutation.... Shows that the concept of multiplication (i.e. 1 x 1 = 1) was not that unknown to the ancients (e.g. 1 man x 1 woman = 1 flesh). As I just said in one of the other Trinity threads, addition is totally wrong to begin with because it assumes a division between the things being counted, while the Trinity (as Tertullian put it) expresses distinction without division.
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UnDisfellowshipped
Link,
I wanted to give you more info about believing in the Trinity and being Born Again.
First of all, no human on earth can even understand the Holy Scriptures correctly UNTIL The Holy Spirit has "enlightened" them.
(When I was first Born Again in July 2001, I did not have a really good understanding of the Trinity yet, although I did believe in it because of the Scriptures I had just read, and I definitely believed that Jesus was God.)
Then, if The Holy Spirit chooses to enlighten a person with the Truth of the Gospel, that person must then make a decision whether or not he will repent and put all his faith in Jesus Christ as his Savior and Lord and God.
Then, if that person chooses to repent and put faith in Jesus, The Holy Spirit then comes and actually lives inside of that person and causes him to be Born Again and be Saved.
Here are the things that, according to what I have read in the Bible, a person must believe in order to be Born Again and Saved:
* That Jesus is the Christ [Messiah], The Son of God, The Lord, your personal Savior, and the Eternal "I AM" [Jehovah].
* That Jesus came to earth in Human Flesh (was 100% Human and 100% God), sacrificed His Human Life and shed His Blood for our sins (received our punishment from The Father in our place), was buried, and then rose from the dead on the 3rd day in the same Human Body (which is now Glorified and Immortal) and that He is coming again (first to "rapture" the Christians and then to destroy Antichrist and his followers).
* That you are a sinner who is condemned to Hell, and the only way to be saved is by repenting and putting all your faith in Jesus and His Sacrifice and Resurrection.
The evil-doer on the cross next to Jesus was saved, and he may not have had a real good understanding of the Trinity, but he did put faith in Jesus as The Lord and as King and as Christ and as his Savior.
Luke 23:42-43: And he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your Kingdom." And Jesus said to him, "Truly I say to you, Today you shall be with Me in Paradise."
Notice a couple of things:
* That evil-doer, when dying, prayed to Jesus, not to God The Father (just as Stephen also did later in Acts Chapter 7).
* That evil-doer was Born Again and Saved without doing ANY "good works", not even being baptized!
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LittleToe
UnDF'ed:
Yayy - you've given me an opportunity to disagree with you!I'm glad you mentioned the thief on the cross. IMHO this shows the minimum required, not any of the other stuff that you posted.
KISS!The thief simply put faith in Jesus as one who could ensure his afterlife. To read more into that situation is, IMHO interpretive.
The text doesn't indicate that he believed Jesus was God, that he believed in hell, or any of that stuff that are so anathema to Jews, JW's and exJW's alike that it might create a barrier to their acceptance.Jesus never left a list of things that one must and must not believe, before being granted life. It was simply "believe in me!" (perhaps more accurately "my name" - "Yah is salvation" - "salvation is I AM"??).
Now that certainly does seem infer certain things, I'll grant you, but IMHO to prodce a lists of doctrines that MUST be believed (especially given that these took decades, even centuries, to be refined - John 14:1; Acts 8:37; Acts 16:31; Rom.10:9) is unhelpful to the simple seeker.
The bottom line, of what I'm trying to say, is that I do not believe that understanding even a rudimentary "Trinity" is essential to "salvation".I do believe that the "Spirit" will further enlighten the mind, in these things, but that this is not a prerequisite for "salvation". Does "God" begin a work and not see it through to completion - however long that may take?
I believe that scripture and personal experience will attest to what I am saying (they certainly do for me, but then every one must have their own mind made up, on this matter).
By way of reasoning; does it take more faith to be saved than to be healed?
Leo:
You and me both
Keep up the good work!Edited to add:
So having my babies isn't totally out of the question, then?? -
hooberus
LT said:
I was "born again" (if you want to use that term) whilst still a JW Elder, complete with all their teachings.
The only thing that had changed was a growing awareness that Jesus was more than I had been taught.
LT do you equate "born again" with being saved?
If so, do you think that a person can be saved while believing that Jesus' body was not raised (a WT teaching), but that instead he was recreated as "a spirit." ?
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LittleToe
Hoob:
We're veering offtopic, but nonetheless:LT do you equate "born again" with being saved?
Yes. There may be theological reasons for try to separate them, but IMHO there are few experiential ones.
Are you talking about Regeneration, or Conversion?If so, do you think that a person can be saved while believing that Jesus' body was not raised (a WT teaching), but that instead he was recreated as "a spirit." ?
Simple answer - yes - look at the thief on the cross, and what little is recorded about his belief system.
Also, what did Jesus himself say?Now if you want to delve deeper, and take account of Paul's later developed theology (Rom.10:9). which I believe is where you are going, so be it. I believe it's actually a "belts and braces" approach to belief (with some early apologetics thrown in), as the statement included the prerequisite "belief in Jesus". However I don't think that these things are in the forefront of a mind that is simply accepting Christ. My admonishion would be - don't bind up heaven from folks.
I do believe that these are important doctrines, but I am very much of the opinion that there are salvation issues (belief) and then there are intellect-teasers. I believe that Jesus has a thing or two to say about forcing more on people than what is required (and I don't believe this was limited to merely works, though it could be argued that professions of the mouth also come under this category).
Further, I don't take issue with the JW's teaching of Jesus' resurrection, per se. I believe them totally in error, but nonetheless, they do believe in a resurrection of sorts.
I thank "God" that "He" never made an accurate understanding, of such a doctrine, a precondition to my "conversion".If you are going to start saying that certain doctrines must be held, then you must also go the whole hog and say that baptism is also a prerequisite, which leaves the thief on the cross in limbo.
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link
UnDisfellowshipped,
I do not want to appear argumentative because even though I may never agree with you, I at least want to understand how you reach the conclusions that you do.You said in part:
Here are the things that, according to what I have read in the Bible, a person must believe in order to be Born Again and Saved:
* That Jesus is the Christ [Messiah], The Son of God, The Lord, your personal Savior, and the Eternal "I AM" [Jehovah].
You appear to mean that in order to be a Christian a person must believe that all the above are one (i.e. the Trinity) and then you go on to say:
The evil-doer on the cross next to Jesus was saved, and he may not have had a real good understanding of the Trinity, but he did put faith in Jesus as The Lord and as King and as Christ and as his Savior.
And:
Notice a couple of things:
- That evil-doer, when dying, prayed to Jesus, not to God The Father (just as Stephen also did later in Acts Chapter 7).
* That evil-doer was Born Again and Saved without doing ANY "good works", not even being baptized!
Is this information not a bit contradictory, or am I just being picky?
link
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UnDisfellowshipped
LittleToe said:
UnDF'ed:Yayy - you've given me an opportunity to disagree with you!
I think it's the first time ever.
LittleToe said:
I'm glad you mentioned the thief on the cross. IMHO this shows the minimum required, not any of the other stuff that you posted.
KISS!The thief simply put faith in Jesus as one who could ensure his afterlife. To read more into that situation is, IMHO interpretive.
The text doesn't indicate that he believed Jesus was God, that he believed in hell, or any of that stuff that are so anathema to Jews, JW's and exJW's alike that it might create a barrier to their acceptance.I agree that the text does not indicate that the thief believed Jesus was God (it did indicate that he believed Jesus was The Lord and The King of the Kingdom of God, however).
LittleToe said:
Jesus never left a list of things that one must and must not believe, before being granted life. It was simply "believe in me!" (perhaps more accurately "my name" - "Yah is salvation" - "salvation is I AM"??).
Well, according to the Scriptures, Jesus and the Apostles gave a few more requirements than simply believing in Jesus, one of which is that a person must repent to be saved.
Also, "believing in Jesus" will not save a person, IF they are not believing in the True Jesus Christ of the Bible:
Matthew 16: 13-17: When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?" So they said, "Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
If it was not required to know WHO the True Jesus Christ is, then why did Jesus ask that question?
Also, why did Jesus give the warnings about false Christs?
Matthew 24: 23-25: "Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand.
Why was Paul so concerned that Christians might be deceived into believing in a false Jesus?
2nd Corinthians 11: 3-4: But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted--you may well put up with it!
Galatians 1:6-9: I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the Gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
The Apostle John also stated that you MUST believe that Jesus came in Human Flesh in order to be Born Again and that anyone who did not believe this had "the spirit of Antichrist":
1st John 4:3: and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.
Also, simply "believing" that Jesus existed or even that He was Christ and the Son of God is not enough to save a person. The demons also believe and shudder with fear.
James 2:19: You believe that there is One God; you do well: the demons also believe, and tremble.
Mark 3:11: And unclean spirits, when they saw Him, fell down before Him, and cried, saying, "You are the Son of God."
In order to be Born Again, a person must have "saving faith" -- put all of his trust, confidence, hope, faith, and belief in Jesus as his ONLY WAY to Salvation -- that Jesus is his personal Savior and Lord of his life.
Now that certainly does seem infer certain things, I'll grant you, but IMHO to prodce a lists of doctrines that MUST be believed (especially given that these took decades, even centuries, to be refined - John 14:1; Acts 8:37; Acts 16:31; Rom.10:9) is unhelpful to the simple seeker.
The bottom line, of what I'm trying to say, is that I do not believe that understanding even a rudimentary "Trinity" is essential to "salvation".
I do believe that the "Spirit" will further enlighten the mind, in these things, but that this is not a prerequisite for "salvation". Does "God" begin a work and not see it through to completion - however long that may take?I believe that scripture and personal experience will attest to what I am saying (they certainly do for me, but then every one must have their own mind made up, on this matter).
But, then why did Jesus say this?
John 8:24: I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins: for if you do not believe that I AM, you shall die in your sins.
LittleToe said:
By way of reasoning; does it take more faith to be saved than to be healed?
Good question, I would say yes, because some people were healed without having ANY faith in Jesus as the Messiah or Son of God.
Luke 22: 50-51: And one of them struck the servant of the high priest and cut off his right ear. But Jesus answered and said, "Permit even this." And He touched his ear and healed him.