All About The Trinity

by UnDisfellowshipped 287 Replies latest watchtower bible

Richie

Undisfellowshipped: Thank you very much for the tremendous research you did and also for the patient explanations to everyone who asked about the trinity doctrine. It is true that those who do not believe do not have the Holy Spirit within them in order for them to fully grasp and understand the real truth from the bible. Another problem is also that many are still using and paraphrasing from the NWT bible, which deceives the reader even more. The sad fact is that many are still captive to the doctrines of the Watchtower, even in their "defense" of the scriptures - if they only realize that the WTS is really Satan's tool to deceive many, it would be much easier to convince them a pure truth, which is taught by the power of the Holy Spirit working within true believers.
I became a Christian about a year ago and I could not believe how suddenly I could understand the bible for the first time! I do not read the NWT bible anymore, except if I have to de referencing and comparisons.
Just to elaborate on the trinity doctrine, I will include some of the comments made during the first 3 centuries of our common era:
In the booklet "Should you believe in the Trinity" unreferenced quotes from Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Hippolytus, and Origen are made. Why are these quotes unreferenced? Also on page 7 of this same booklet, the statement is made, "Thus, the testimony of the Bible and of history makes it clear that the Trinity was unknown throughout Biblical times and for SEVERAL CENTURIES thereafter." Based on the quotes below, how can the Watchtower Society make these claims?
Justin Martyr (110-165 AD):
"... nor to know that the Father of the universe has a Son; who also, being the first-begotten Word of God, is even God." - First Apology of Justin, Ch LXIII; "... but now you will permit me first to recount the prophecies, which I wish to do in order to prove that Christ is called both God and the Lord of hosts ..." - Dialogue with Trypho, Ch XXXVI; "Therefore these words testify explicitly that He is witnessed to by Him who established these things, as deserving to be worshipped, as God and as Christ." - Ibid, Ch LXIII.
Irenaeus (120-202 AD):
"... and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King ..." - Against Heresies, Bk 1, Ch 10; "But that He is in His own right , beyond all men who ever
lived, God, and Lord, and King Eternal, and the Incarnate Word, proclaimed by all the prophets and apostles, and by the Spirit Himself, may be seen by all who have attained to even a small portion of the truth." - Against Heresies, Bk 3, Ch 19.
Clement of Alexandria (153-217 AD):
"For 'before the morning star it was;' and 'in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.'" and "This Word, then, the Christ, the cause of both our being at first (for He was in God) and of our well being, this very Word has now appeared as man, He alone being both, both God and man ..." and "The Word, who in the beginning bestowed on us life as Creator when He formed us, taught us to live well when He appeared as our Teacher; that as God He might afterwards conduct us to the life which never ends." - Exhortation to the Heathen, Ch 1.
Tertullian (145-220 AD):
"Him we believe to have been sent by the Father into the virgin, and to have been born of her - being both Man and God, the Son of Man and the Son of God, and to have been called by the name of Jesus Christ." and "... while the mystery of the dispensation is still guarded, which distributes the Unity into a Trinity, placing them in their order the three Persons - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost ..." - Against Praxeas, Ch 2; "With these did He then speak, in the Unity of the Trinity, as with His ministers and witnesses." and "...I mean the Word of God, 'through whom all things were made, and without whom nothing was made.' Now if He too is God, according to John (who says) 'The Word was God'..." - Against Praxeas, Ch 12.
Hippolytus (170-236 AD):
"For he speaks to this effect: 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.'" and "...'Go ye and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.' And by this He showed, that whosoever omitted any one of these, failed in glorifying God perfectly. For it is through this Trinity that the Father is glorified. For the Father willed, the Son did, the Spirit manifested. The whole Scriptures, then, proclaim this truth." - Against the Heresy of One Noetus, Ch 14; "For Christ is the God above all, and He has arranged to wash away sin from human beings." - The Refutation of All Heresies, Bk 10, Ch 30.
Origen (185-254 AD):
"From all which we learn that the person of the Holy Spirit was of such authority and dignity, that saving baptism was not complete except by the authority of the most excellent Trinity of them all ..." - Origen de Principiis, 1.3.2; "For it is one and the same thing to have a share in the Holy Spirit, which is (the Spirit) of the Father and the Son, since the nature of the Trinity is one and incorporeal." - Origen de Principiis, 4.1.32
After reading pg 7 of Should You Believe In The Trinity? and then reading the quotes above, do you feel that the WTS was in any way deceptive by using ?quotes? from these early Christian writers to support their teachings? If yes, then why does the WTS need to engage in deception if it teaches ?the Truth?? See Zeph 3:13 and Isa 28:15.
Richie :*)
zen nudist

Undisfellowshipped: Thank you very much for the tremendous research you did and also for the patient explanations to everyone who asked about the trinity doctrine. It is true that those who do not believe do not have the Holy Spirit within them in order for them to fully grasp and understand the real truth from the bible.

Its this sort of condescending BS[Belief System] that makes people turned off from anything you might say from this point forwards, not that you care one bit, after all you are claiming to have the HOLY SPIRIT which means that everything you believe must be right, right? yet I am hard pressed to find any christians claiming they are ALWAYS RIGHT, but why? there are many of the "orthodox" who claim to have the "holy spirit" who disagree about just about every doctrine in the bible and yet that is ignored...but its really the same issue... if everything else can be debated, the trinity which is not even a bible teaching surely is not exempt. the BS about the "real truth" is what gets people killed over stupid debates which no one can absolutely verify as the voice of god in their heads cannot be heard by their opponents.
if you can concede that you do not know everything about the bible then you can have the honesty to see that some people may be right even if you feel deep down in your guts that god is telling you that you are right...it may only be indigestion.
Richie

Zen, I do not claim that I know everything and certainly did not want to give you that impression at all. If I stated something that appeared out of line, I will apologize for that. However, I must confess that when I became a Christian by being born again, I was never the same and the feeling I got was something so different and wonderful which made all the difference in the world for me in how I now understand the scriptures in a whole new and different light. This is what I tried to convey and made mention of without putting on a pretense of any kind! Again I hope that you understand this and of course I do expect and accept any "opposing" view, which is anybody's right in a free world. That's why we have a discussion board to highlight and voice our opinions, so that all kinds of voices are being heard and expounded upon for the better understanding of mankind and how we can all draw closer to God.
Richie :*)
Undaunted Danny

Excellant R+D above postings.
Something to brainstorm about.::::: The trinity doctrine.Why it could be plausible, in light of new discoveries in Quantum theory/particle physics which concept allows for a plurality of 'multi-verse' as opposed to just one universe. How God's omnipresence could be in a multiple dimension, so he could be in more than one place or is it three places ? At a time.....Ref;John 1:1,,, Matt. 10:29 This would account for God's unlimited database...Anyone wanna touch this one
herk
herk

Richie,
herk
UnDisfellowshipped

Herk said:
It did not take years for the apostles to discover who Jesus was. When he asked them who he was, Peter did not say "You are God." Instead, he replied, "You are the Messiah (Anointed One), the Son of the Living God." (Matthew 16:16)
Herk always, ALWAYS claims that the Apostles DID NOT confess Jesus as God, but that claim is FALSE -- all you have to do is read the Bible:
John 20:26-29 (NKJV): And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, "Peace to you!" Then He said to Thomas, "Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing." And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
* Herk, was Thomas an Apostle of Christ?
* Herk, did Thomas confess Jesus as his God?
* Herk, was Thomas a polytheist or what?
* Herk, did Jesus commend Thomas for believing that He was God?
Why do you, Herk, ALWAYS post the Apostle Peter's confession of Christ as the Messiah and completely ignore the Apostle Thomas' confession of Christ as God?
UnDisfellowshipped

Herk said:
The Scriptures teach the truth. However, Undisfellowshipped has inserted the Trinitarian interpretation of the texts he posted. Additionally, he uses many terms, phrases and speculations that are not found in the Bible:
Herk, why does it make any difference whether a person uses phrases that are not in the Bible to describe things that are in the Bible?
* Herk, is it wrong to use the word "Omniscient" to decribe God because that word is not in the Scriptures?
* Herk, is it wrong to use the word "Bible" because that word is not in the Scriptures?
* Herk, is it wrong to use the word "Unitarian" because that word is not in the Scriptures?
* Herk, is it wrong to use the word "Universe" because that word is not in the Scriptures?
* Herk, is it wrong to use the word "Galaxy" because that word is not in the Scriptures?
* Herk, is it wrong to use the word "Planet" because that word is not in the Scriptures?
Herk said:
However, a husband and wife are separate beings, not one being as the three persons in the Trinity are said to be. Thus the husband-wife illustration is totally inappropriate.
Herk, my illustration was simply to point out that the Bible shows that two distinct persons can be in UNITY as ONE, even though the husband is the HEAD.
The Bible shows that The Father, The Son, and The Spirit are in UNITY as ONE, and that The Father is the HEAD.
I never have, and never will use the husband and wife illustration in reference to God's One Being. I used it in reference to God's UNITY.
In fact, I do not even talk about God's "Being" when I speak about the Trinity, because the Bible doesn't talk about God's Being.
The Bible talks about God's GODHEAD and God's NATURE and God's FORM:
Acts 17:29: Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
Romans 1:20: For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse
Colossians 2:9: For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Galatians 4:8: But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods.
Philippians 2:6: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God
Herk said:
UnDisfellowshipped thus shows his preference for a Bible translation that is out of step with the latest understanding of biblical languages.
Absolutely! I'll take an ACCURATE, RELIABLE, FAITHFUL, NON-TAMPERED WITH Bible (such as the King James Version which God used for centuries) any day over the modern, perverted, corrupted, Satanic translations such as the NWT, and some of the other "Modern Bibles".
I prefer Translations that actually agree with the EARLY Christian Fathers' Scripture quotations.
It sounds to me like Herk wants us all to "keep up-to-date with the New Light" in Bible Translations!
Herk said:
This shows rejection by UnDisfellowshipped of the Bible's teaching that angels, Moses, David, the judges of Israel and others were called God due to their position as God's special representatives.]
Herk, where are "angels" ever called God in the Bible? The only Angel ever called God is THE Angel of the Lord -- The Pre-Human Jesus Christ who was worshiped and prayed to as YAHWEH!
Read Hebrews Chapter 1 very, very carefully, even in the NWT.
Well, actually Satan and his demons are also called "gods", but they are FALSE GODS, and are NOT gods by nature are they, Herk?
Herk, where was David ever called God in the Bible, EVER?
Those wicked judges of Israel were FALSE gods, read the Bible:
Psalm 82:1-8: G od stands in the congregation of the mighty; He judges among the gods. How long will you judge unjustly, And show partiality to the wicked? Selah Defend the poor and fatherless; Do justice to the afflicted and needy. Deliver the poor and needy; Free them from the hand of the wicked. They do not know, nor do they understand; They walk about in darkness; All the foundations of the earth are unstable. I said, "You are gods, And all of you are children of the Most High. But you shall die like men, And fall like one of the princes." Arise, O God, judge the earth; For You shall inherit all nations.
And, what does the Bible say about false gods? Psalm 97:9: For thou, LORD, [art] high above all the earth: thou art exalted far above all gods. Jeremiah 10:11: Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, [even] they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens. 1st Corinthians 8:5-6: For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live. Herk will probably try to claim that 1st Corinthians 8:6 says that ONLY The Father is The One God. However, if that is true, then the SAME Verse also says that ONLY Jesus is The One Lord to the exclusion of The Father, which would mean that The Father is NOT The Lord! So, my question remains for you Herk, did Jesus create the Heavens and the Earth or not? Herk, did God The Father create the Heavens and the Earth or not? Herk, where does the Bible say that ONLY The Father is God to the exclusion of The Son? And, now about Moses. Exodus 7:1: And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. Moses was "a god" [mighty one] to Pharaoh. Herk, was Moses God by his own nature and his own power?
Herk, was Moses always "a god"?
Herk, was Moses Almighty God?
Herk, did Moses receive worship and prayer and honor as being God as Jesus Christ did?

The Scriptures clearly show that Moses was NOT truly God -- not by nature or position or power. God simply made Moses a mighty one over Pharaoh!
Herk said:
Jesus claimed to be the Son of God. Not once did he ever claim to be God.
Jesus COMMENDED the Apostle Thomas for worshiping Him as GOD. Jesus told the Pharisees that He was the Great "I AM" and that they would die in their sins if they did not believe that He was the "I AM". Jesus said that He was The Alpha and The Omega, The First and The Last, and The Beginning and The End. Jesus repeatedly accepted worship, praise, honor, and prayer as GOD. Jesus forgave sins which only God can do.
Jesus said that everyone should honor HIM EQUALLY with The Father:
John Chapter 5 (NKJV):
(Verses 16-18:) For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. But Jesus answered them, "My Father has been working until now, and I have been working." Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. [...] (Verses 22-23:) For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
Herk, do you honor The Son just as you honor The Father? Can you explain how you do this?
Afterall, Herk, The Son is the One who will be judging you, me, and everyone else!
Herk said:
He clearly stated that the Father is "the only true God."
Did that exclude Jesus from also being "The Only True God"?
The Bible says that Jesus is The Only Potentate and The One Lord and the Only Master and The Only One who is Immortal.
Does that exclude The Father from being our Potentate, our Lord, our Master, and being Immortal? Obviously not. So why do you claim that when The Father is called "The Only True God" that it must exclude The Son from being The True God?
In fact, the Bible also calls Jesus "The Only True God":
1st John 5:20: And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
1st Timothy 1:16-17: Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, [be] honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Herk, if Jesus is not the True God, then what kind of "god" is He?
herk
UnDisfellowshipped,
Why do you, Herk, ALWAYS post the Apostle Peter's confession of Christ as the Messiah and completely ignore the Apostle Thomas' confession of Christ as God?
I've not ignored Thomas' confession at all. In other threads, I've given explanations similar to the following:
Thomas did not call Jesus God the Son or refer to in the Trinitarian sense at all. Thomas was a Jew. He used a mode of expression common to the Old Testament in which accredited representatives of God are referred to as God.
- Angels are called God in Genesis 16:7, 13; 22:8, 11, 15, 16 and Exodus 23:20, 21.
- Moses is referred to as God at Exodus 7:1.
- The judges of Israel are God in Exodus 21:6; 22:8, 9, 28; Psalms 82:1, 6 and John 10:34.
- The king on David's throne is called God in the same sense that Jesus is called God, as is seen by comparing Psalm 45:6 with Hebrews 1:8.
Jesus was such an accredited servant of God. (Acts 2:22, NIV) Earlier in John 20, Jesus told Mary, "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God and your God." (Verse 17) Clearly Jesus was not himself "Very God" since he was to ascend to his God.
Trinitarians seem incapable of seeing God as Jews such as Thomas did. Instead of viewing the term God in the way the Bible uses it, you prefer to see it with the colored glasses of Trinitarianism. There is only one Almighty God. Jesus called him "the only true God." Trinitarians make Jesus appear to be a liar by their claim that he is also "the only true God," something the Bible does not teach.
Some questions for you to answer:
- Does the Bible say or not say that other individuals besides the Father and Jesus are God?
- Since there is only one true God, which is more reasonable, that both the Father and Jesus are Almighty God or that Jesus is God in the sense that angels, Moses, David, Israel's judges and others are God?
- Where in the Bible is there even a hint that God is three rather than one?
herk
UnDisfellowshipped

Deputy Dog said:
No matter how many times I read 23:1-36 His love for those " Serpents, brood of vipers" is so heart warming. (sorry!) This is pure condemnation! I don't see any offer of a choice to repent.
But have you read Luke Chapter 3?
Luke 3: 7-9: Then he said to the multitudes that came out to be baptized by him, "Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."
Matthew 3: 5-12: Then Jerusalem, all Judea, and all the region around the Jordan went out to him and were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins. But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, "Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, and do not think to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

All About The Trinity

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