"my Father is greater than I" and the Trinity

by hooberus 86 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  hooberus

  "Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I." John 14:28

  John 14:28 if frequently applied to in order to argue against the Trinity teaching that Jesus and the Father are equal.

  Response:

  The term "greater" is applied to one who is served by others: servants serve one that is "greater" than themselves.

  Luke 22

  26: But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
  27: For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.

  In Luke 22:27 the one who is served is said to be "greater" than the one who serves: "For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat?. . . "

  The one who is served is "greater" by position than the one who serves. Even though the one who is served is greater by position than the one who is served they are both equal in terms of nature (ie. they are both equal in terms of their humanity).

  In the same way Jesus when He became a man took upon himself "the form of a servant" (Phillippians 2:7) Jesus as a servant was positionally lower then the Father. As a servant Jesus could say that the Father was "greater than" he, just as the one who is served is said to be "greater" than the one who serves (Luke 22:27).

  However, just as an earthly servant is equal by nature to his master, so Jesus by nature is equal to his Father. The Trinity teaches that Jesus and the Father are equal in terms of nature, but allows that the Father was greater by postion when Jesus became a servant.

  Interestingly the Bible says that Jesus "took upon him the form of a servant":

  "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:" Phillippians 2:7

  The phrase "took upon him the form of servant" would seem to indicte that prior to the time of talking on thre form of a servant that Jesus was not then in the form of a servant. This is a poweful argument that Jesus and the Father were positionally equal prior to the incarnation. This would also seem to contradict the Watchtower premise that Jesus existed as "a servant" for millions of years prior to the incarnation.
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  Carmel

  ABDUL BAHA: Our belief in regard to Christ is exactly what is recorded in the New Testament; however, we elucidate this matter and do not speak literally or in a manner based merely on blind belief. For instance, it is recorded in the Gospel of St. John, "In the beginning was the word, the word was with God and the word was God." The majority of Christians accept this matter literally, but we give a logical explanation that no one need find occasion to reject.

  The Christians have made this statement about "the word," the foundation of the trinity; but philosophers state that the trinity as regards the identity of divinity is impossible.

  We explain this subject as follows: By the "word" we mean that creation with its infinite forms is like unto letters and the individual members of humanity are likewise like unto letters. A letter individually has no meaning, no independent significance, but the station of Christ is the station of the word. That is why we say Christ is the "word" - a complete significance. The universal bestowal of divinity is manifest in Christ. It is obvious that the evolution of other souls is approximate, or only a part of the whole, but the perfections of the Christ are universal, or the whole. The reality of Christ is the collective center of all the independent virtues and infinite significances.

  For example, this lamp sheds light and the moon illumines the night with its silvery beams, but neither light is self created. 149

  His Holiness the Christ is like unto the sun; his light issued forth from his own identity. He received it not from another person - therefore we give him the comprehensive title of the "word." By this we mean the all-comprehending reality and the depository of the infinite divine characteristics. This "word" has an honorary beginning and not a beginning of time. For instance, we say this person has precedence over all. This precedence comes to him through the station and honor which he now holds in life, but it is not a precedence of time. In reality the "word" has neither beginning nor ending. The letters of the "word" are those qualities which appeared in Christ and not his physical body. These attributes were from God - like unto the rays of the sun reflected in a clear mirror. The rays, the light and the heat of the sun are its qualities which have become manifest in the mirror. It is evident that these qualities were ever with God, even at this time they are with him, they are inseparable from him because divinity is not subject to division. Division is a sign of imperfection and God is the perfect one.

  It is clear that the attributes of divinity are co-equal and co-existent with the essence. In that station there is absolute unity. This in brief is the exposition of the station of the Christ.

  (Abdu'l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 147)
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  Don Smith

  As to form or nature they are the same but as to being equal in that form the scriptures always without exception state" OUT of the FATHER and THRU the SON"is consistent.The Father is creator ,the originator and through his Son the Word of God all things are accomplished whether in heaven or on earth. When Jesus was baptized the voice from heaven said this one is the one he approved of and listen to him.

  Even while on earth that " out of the Father and thru the Son " remained the same although in human form or nature and was untouchable unless his Father allowed others to take his life as he stated to those seeking to kill him.said you can do nothing to me unless the Father allows it.

  Don
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  ellderwho

  Hoob,

  As usual a good read.

  E
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  Elsewhere

  Oh gawd... this kind of stuff drives me nuts.

  Wars have been fought over this... countless lives lost and countless people tortured.

  Does it REALLY matter whether there is a trinity or not? I say no.
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  hooberus

  http://www.forananswer.org/John/Jn14_28.htm

  http://aslivingstones.tripod.com/id99.htm
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  stillajwexelder

  Well I vote for Arian -- I want to satrt the Arian "Heresy" all over again -- no wonder so few muslims become Christian - it is repugnant to them that there can be a Trinity
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  Yerusalyim

  JWism and Mormonism are both forms of the Arian Heresy, sorry...you can't start it again, it's still here.
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  herk

  hooberus,
  

  It's easy to resort to human sources for support of practically any idea that exists. The sources you linked distort the truth of what Jesus actually said. They also misrepresent some of the published sources they cite and quote. Some of the sources are obviously trinitarian and biased. Their etymologies place emphasis on the secondary definition of "greater," as found in John 14:28, but the primary definition does indeed allow for "greater by nature," something your referenced links try to hide. I'm not a JW, and I'm far from being one of their supporters, but I think it's dishonest and hypocritical for trinitarians to condemn JWs for using partial quotes to support their doctrines while doing the same sort of thing themselves.

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  stillajwexelder,
  

  it is repugnant to them that there can be a Trinity

  As you are probably aware, it's also repugnant to Jews, the people who first introduced the God of the Bible to the world. (John 4:22; Romans 9:4) Whenever the Jews forsook the true God, it was never a Trinity that they abandoned.

  The majority of Christian denominations have walked away from the true God of primitive Christian monotheism just as the Jews often abandoned the God of their forefathers.

  ---

  herk
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  hooberus

  "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him." John 13:16
  

  "Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. . . . " John 15:20

  In the above verses in John the word translated "greater" clearly refers to position and not nature.