"my Father is greater than I" and the Trinity

by hooberus 86 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  hooberus

  The articles are lengthy, and you just threw them out there as if they supplied all the answers in this debate. I could just as easily have mentioned some books and articles that you ought to read which provide an opposing point of view. "Nice work if you can get it!" You don't have to lift a finger while you let the other guy do all the wading through material. You just sit there and wait for him to respond to each point.

  I made my argument using the bible, and provided the arcticles for additional information.

  I'm not going to waste my time by re-reading both articles. But I will show you at least one instance of where they misrepresent the original authors who are cited or quoted:

  Grimm-Thayer, alone among modern lexicons, defines MEIZÔN in such a way as to suggest ontology may be in view: "is used of those who surpass others ... in nature and power, as God: Jn. 10:29, 14:28; Heb. 6:13; 1 Jn. 4:4; add, Jn. 4:12; 8:53" (emphasis added). The question arises whether "nature" in this definition is meant to signify nature of being, as it is used in Trinitarian formulas, or whether it may have a lesser sense ...

  In that paragraph and what follows, the writer of the article takes on the role of a mind reader and tries to persuade us that "nature" in the minds of Grimm and Thayer does not really mean "nature."

  I could give other examples if I wanted to spend the time at it, but overall I thought both articles were extremely biased and made strenuous efforts to complicate something the Bible makes very simple.

  Discussing what an original author (Grimm) meant by his use of a term is not misrepresentation.
• 

  hooberus

  deleted
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  herk

  hooberus,

  These verses can help us to understand the meaning of John 14:28 since the same word "greater" is used by the same author.

  Either you haven't bothered to examine the 230 NT occurrences of the Greek word translated "greater" in John 14:28 or you just don't care what those passages say. The word is translated in a variety of ways, and in most cases refers simply to sheer superiority and has nothing at all to do with position or rank.

  Some examples:

  • The miracles of John 1:50 are "greater" due to frequency and intensity, not because either the miracles or those performing them are greater in rank.
  • The greatness of Jesus compared to Jacob is not due to rank but ability as a miracle worker.
  • The "works" of John 5:20 are "greater" because they will be of greater moment and more numerous and widespread.
  • In John 5:36, the Father's "witness" in behalf of Jesus was "greater" because, though John bore testimony from God, he did not perform "works" such as Jesus performed. The One testifying to both John and Jesus was the same, so rank or position are out of the picture.
  • In John 6:18, the wind is "strong" because of its great intensity.
  • The "loud" voice of John 11:43 is one of greater volume.

  While "greater" in some cases has to do with rank, in a far greater number of occurrences it does not. Since it can be argued that the kurios of John 13:16 and 15:20 is "greater" due to his importance as a slave owner and not due to his rank in the community, I still say your case is very weak.

  More helpful than those two verses is John 10:29. Compare:

  • John 10:29 - "My Father is greater than all."
  • John 14:28 - "My Father is greater than I."

  In neither case is Jesus referring to rank within a Trinity. The Father is greater than everyone and everything, not simply because of his rank, but because of his preeminence in all things.

  herk
• 

  ellderwho

  Herk,

  Its interesting the lengths you go to, to explain Gods nature to all of us, but when questioned on previous threads you fall short in explaining to us who created the Heavens and earth.

  If Jesus creates, this ultimately makes your theology problematic.

  Or should it be said you believe Jesus created some things but not all things.

  E
• 

  hooberus

  Either you haven't bothered to examine the 230 NT occurrences of the Greek word translated "greater" in John 14:28 or you just don't care what those passages say.

  Where did you get the "230" figure?

  The word is translated in a variety of ways, and in most cases refers simply to sheer superiority and has nothing at all to do with position or rank.

  Ltes look at some examples of where persons are compared to each other (I believe all the following use meizon, however I will later confirm it):
  

  • "Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: . . . " Matthew 11:11

  comment: "greater" here certainly does not seem to refer to nature, but to position, authority, godliness, etc.
  

  • " . . . notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he." Matthew 11:11

  comment: this verse is comparing those of the new birth to those of the old birth (compare Colossians 1:13 ) both have the same nature. John the baptist was just as human as Paul (who wrote Colossians). "greater" here does not seem to refer to nature.
  

  • "The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here." Matthew 12:41

  comment: both Jesus and Jonah had the same human nature. Though Trinitarians believe that Jesus also had a divine nature which was superior by nature to Jonah, I don't specifically recall seeing an appeal to this verse by them for evidence of Jesus' higher nature. Unitarians who believe that Jesus only had a human nature would have to admit that according to their doctrine Jesus and Jonah had the same nature, so accoring to unitarain doctrine "greater" here does not refer to nature.
  

  • "The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here." Matthew 12:42

  comment: see above comments; Unitarian doctrine does not teach that greater here refers to nature. They admit that Jesus and solomon were both equally human.

  • "And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 18:3-4

  comment: He that is humble now is greatest in the kingdom. similar to the concept of he that is humble will be exalted. Probably refers to position rather than nature.

  • "But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted." Matthew 23:11-12

  comment: postion most likely in view, not nature.
  

  • "But they held their peace: for by the way they had disputed among themselves, who should be the greatest. And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all." Mark 9:34-35

  comment: clearly seems to refer to position and not nature.
  
  

  • "For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: . . . " Luke 7:28

  comment: see Matthew 11 comments. "greater" here does not seem to refer to nature.

  • " . . . but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he." Luke 7:28

  comment: see Matthew 11 comments. "greater" here probably does not refer to nature

  • "Then there arose a reasoning among them, which of them should be greatest. And Jesus, perceiving the thought of their heart, took a child, and set him by him, And said unto them, Whosoever shall receive this child in my name receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me: for he that is least among you all, the same shall be great." Luke 9:46-48

  comment: see Mark 9. nature does not seem to be in view

  • "The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation, and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here." Luke 11:31

  comment: see above under Matthew: According to Unitarain doctrine "greater" here does not refer to nature. Trinitarians doctrine does not require greater here to refer to nature.
  

  • "The men of Nineve shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here." Luke 11:32

  comment: see above

  • "And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest." Luke 22:24

  comment: the disciples were clearly seeming to be fighting over position, not nature

  • "But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve." Luke 22:26

  comment: "greatest" here clearly does not seem to refer to nature, but position, authority, etc.

  • "For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth." Luke 22:27

  comment: "greater" here clearly does not seem to refer to nature, but position, etc.

  • "The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water? Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?" John 4:11-12

  comment: I think that is if far more likely that the woman was refering to human greatness rather than a comaparison of essential nature.

  • "Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?" John 8:53

  comment: I think that it is more likely that the religious leaders were refering to human greatness (such as position above other prophets) rather than to a comparison of essential natures.

  • "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him." John 13:16

  comment: "greater" here clearly seems to refer to postition and not nature.

  • "Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also." Matthew 15:20

  comment: see above under John 13:16 Jesus quoted his illustration in John 13:16 where greater clearly seems to refer to position, not nature.

  • "But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one: To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God." Acts 8:9-10

  comment: greatest does not seem to refer to nature

  • "Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord." 2 Peter 2:11

  comment: "greater" here is defined in the text as refering to "power and might." Though angels and humans have a different nature, the term "greater" here only demonstrates that man has less power and might than angels, a function of different quantity, not necessarily quality.
• 

  hooberus

  The issue is: does meizon refer to greater by nature, or greater by other factors

  Unitarians argue that Jesus was claiming an inferior nature in John 14:28, therefore they need to show that meizon means "greater" as in greater by nature (as in superior vs. inferior nature).

  Since it can be argued that the kurios of John 13:16 and 15:20 is "greater" due to his importance as a slave owner and not due to his rank in the community, I still say your case is very weak.

  "importance as a slave owner" is not a function of nature ! They both are equally human.
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  hooberus

  Since the term "greater" meizon is frequently used to demonstrate a difference in position, authority, etc. between persons of the same nature, Jesus' use of it in John 14:28 does not prove that he was claiming that the Father is superior by nature to himself.
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  herk

  hooberus,

  The Trinity teaches that Jesus and the Father are equal in terms of nature, but allows that the Father was greater by postion when Jesus became a servant.

  The Father is eternally greater by position:

  • Due to the master/servant relationship between sender and sent one, Jesus could not have been equal with the Father at the time he was sent. (John 13:16)
  • Jesus is forever "the Apostle and High Priest of our confession." He will always be the one who was sent forth by the Father as an Apostle. (Hebrews 3:1; 18:8)
  • The Father "is greater than all." (John 10:29) That includes Jesus, for only of the Father is it said that he is the "one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all." (Ephesians 4:6) Only "from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever. Amen." (Romans 11:36)
  • The Father is eternally the God whom Jesus worships. (John 20:17; Revelation 3:2, 12) "My God" meant the same to Jesus as it did to Paul. (Romans 1:8; 1 Corinthians 1:4; 2 Corinthians 12:21; Philippians 1:3; 4:19; Philemon 4)
  • Though the Father entrusted Jesus with all authority in heaven and on earth, "it is evident that he is excepted who put all things in subjection to him." (Matthew 28:18; 1 Corinthians 15:27) The time will come when "the Son himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to him, so that God [the Father] may be all in all." (1 Corinthians 15:28)

  herk
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  UnDisfellowshipped

  Herk said:

  As you are probably aware, it's [The Trinity] also repugnant to Jews, the people who first introduced the God of the Bible to the world. (John 4:22; Romans 9:4)

  Herk, as you are probably aware, Jesus Christ is also repugnant to the vast majority of Jews, the people who first introduced the God of the Bible to the world.

  ____________________

  Check this Scripture out:

  John 10:29-30: My Father, who gave [them to] Me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of My Father's hand. I and [My] Father are One.

  Notice that first, Jesus said "My Father is greater than all", then He immediately stated: "I and My Father are ONE."

  What was the result of Jesus saying that?

  John 10:31-33: Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "Many good works have I showed you from My Father; for which of those works do you stone Me?" The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You; but for blasphemy; and because that You, being a Man, make Yourself God.
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  UnDisfellowshipped

  Herk said:

  The Father is greater than everyone and everything, not simply because of his rank, but because of his preeminence in all things.

  Who is the One who has "preeminence in all things"? I'll let the Bible answer:

  Colossians 1:15-18 (NKJV): He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

  Isaiah 44:24 (NKJV): Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, And He who formed you from the womb: "I am the Lord [YHWH], who makes all things, Who stretches out the heavens all alone, Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself;

  Hebrews 1:10 (NKJV): And: "You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.

  Genesis 1:1: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

  John 1:3 (NKJV): All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.