Bush Bash, Anti-gay marrige.

by SC_Guy 101 Replies latest social current

  • Phantom Stranger
    Phantom Stranger

    Yeru has had this argument before. I will not state that Yeru should do anything. I think that there are some things that might be good for him... but he has a right to his opinion, and I don't get to "should" on him. I believe that he would do his best to discharge his duties properly if his opinion came into conflict with his duties, for example.

    I understand why you say that, seattle nice guy - but I think that you are being somewhat dismissive of Yeru to say that. If you read this thread http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/14/62166/1.ashx , for example, you will see that he has held this opinion for some time, and has discussed it with quite a few gay people. He's committed to it. It would be nice if hanging out with some gay guys for a while would change a view as deeply rooted as his - but it's not reality, in my opinion.

    Quite simply, he doesn't want to choose to accept the concept of homosexuality being accepted by society, or as a way someone is rather than a behavior they have, or as something other than a sin. Yeru is a member in good standing of two groups that are not homosexual-friendly - the US military and the Catholic Church - and his views are symptomatic of some members of each group. You can argue with him all you want... but you are starting from different places - because one of you accepts homosexuality as a state and the other as a deviant behavior.

  • Phantom Stranger
    Phantom Stranger

    Holy Matrimony What's really undermining the sanctity of marriage? By Dahlia Lithwick, Slate.com
    Posted Thursday, Nov. 20, 2003, at 3:29 PM PT

    Within nanoseconds of the Massachusetts Supreme Court's declaration that gay marriage is protected by the Constitution came predictions of the end of life as we know it: The president, speaking from London, warned: "Marriage is a sacred institution between a man and a woman. Today's decision of the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court violates this important principle."

    "The time is now. If you don't do something about this, then you cannot in 20 years?when you see the American public disintegrating and you see our enemies overtaking us because we have no moral will?you remember that you did nothing," said Sandy Rios, president of the Concerned Women for America, to her 1 million radio listeners. "We must amend the Constitution if we are to stop a tyrannical judiciary from redefining marriage to the point of extinction," Focus on the Family urged in a statement on Tuesday.

    Extinction, no less. The institution of marriage?the one that survived Henry VIII, Lorena Bobbitt, Nick Lachey and Jessica Simpson?is suddenly going to become extinct?

    Do you want to know what's destroying the sanctity of marriage? Phone messages like the ones we'd get at my old divorce firm in Reno, Nev., left on Saturday mornings and picked up on Monday: "Beeep. Hi? My name is Misty and I think I maybe got married last night. Could someone call me back and tell me if I could get an annulment? I'm at Circus Circus? Room?honey what room is this?oh yeah. Room 407. Thank you. Beeep."

    It just doesn't get much more sacred than that.

    Here's my modest request: If you're going to be a crusader for the sanctity of marriage?if you really believe gay marriage will have some vast corrosive, viral impact on marriage as a whole?here's a brief list of other laws and policies far more dangerous to the institution. Go after these first, then pass your constitutional amendment.

    1. Divorce
    Somewhere between 43 percent and 50 percent of marriages end in divorce. If you believe gay marriage is single-handedly eroding a sacred and ancient institution, you cannot possibly be pro-divorce. That means any legislation passed in recent decades making divorce more readily available?from no-fault statutes to the decline of adultery prosecutions?should also be subject to bans, popular referendum, and constitutional amendment.

    2. Circus Circus
    In general, if there is blood in your body and you are over 18, you can get married, so long as you're not in love with your cousin. (Although even that's OK in some states). You can be married to someone you met at the breakfast buffet. Knowing her last name is optional. And you can be married by someone who was McOrdained on the Internet. So before you lobby to ban gay marriage, you might want to work to enact laws limiting the sheer frivolousness of straight marriage. You should be lobbying for an increase in minimum-age requirements, for mandatory counseling pre-marriage, and for statutory waiting periods before marriages (and divorces) can be permitted.

    3. Birth ControlThe dissenters in the Massachusetts decision are of the opinion that the only purpose of marriage is procreation. They urge that a sound reason for discriminating against gay couples is that there is a legitimate state purpose in ensuring, promoting, and supporting an "optimal social structure for the bearing and raising of children." If you're going to take the position that marriage exists solely to encourage begetting, you need to oppose childlessness by choice, birth control, living together, and marriage for the post-menopausal. In fact, if you're really looking for "optimal" social structures for childrearing, you need to legislate against single parents, poor parents, two-career parents, alcoholic or sick parents, and parents who (like myself) are afraid of the Baby Einstein videos.

    4. Misc.
    Here's what's really undermining the sacredness of modern marriage: soap operas, wedding planning, longer work days, cuter secretaries, fights over money, reality TV, low-rise pants, mothers-in-law, boredom, Victoria's Secret catalogs, going to bed mad, the billable hour, that stubborn 7 pounds, the Wiggles, Internet chat rooms, and selfishness. In fact we should start amending the Constitution to deal with the Wiggles immediately.

    Here's why marriage will likely survive last week's crushing decision out of Massachusetts: Because despite all the horrors of Section 4, above, human beings want and deserve a soul mate; someone to grow old with, someone who thinks our dopey entry in the New Yorker cartoon competition is hilarious, and someone to help carry the shopping bags. Gay couples have asked the state to explain why such privileges should be denied them and have yet to receive an answer that is credible.

    The decision to make a marriage "sacred" does not belong to the state?if the state were in charge of mandating sacredness in matrimony, we'd have to pave over both Nevada and Jessica Simpson. We make marriage sacred by choosing to treat it that way, one couple at a time. We make marriage a joke by treating it like a two-week jungle safari. There is no evidence that gay couples are any more inclined toward that latter course than supermodels, rock stars, or that poor spineless bald man on Who Wants to Marry My Dad? There's good evidence that most of them will take the commitment very seriously, as do the rest of us. There will be more "sanctity" in marriage when we recognize that people of all orientations can make sacred choices. Good for Massachusetts for recognizing that truth.

    Dahlia Lithwick is a Slate senior editor.

    Article URL: http://slate.msn.com/id/2091475/

  • seattleniceguy
    seattleniceguy

    Point taken, Phantom. I meant Yeru no disrespect. I know that my own views changed by having friends that were gay. One was a Witness, which prompted me to think a great deal about the terrible and never-ending struggle gay people would subject themselves to by trying to follow the Witness version of morality.

    I think the issue also came into sharp focus for me when I left the organization, intentionally subjecting myself to the intense hatred of everyone I knew. Gay people have to undergo something similar (less and less, hopefully, as time goes on) when coming out of the closet. Why would anyone choose this kind of treatment? Only because they're being honest with themselves, not because on a whim they decide they want to have sex with someone of the same gender.

    SNG

  • Yerusalyim
    Yerusalyim

    Because I serve in the military, or that I'm catholic, in no way means I've not been associated with homosexuals...who knows, I might even have family members that are gay. I assure you that my religion and the military both have shaped my opinion, but they are not based on a religious arguement, but rather a societal arguement...If we redefine marriage to allow gay marriage, then we need to redefine it to include anyone who wants to marry. Polygamy, incest, it's all fair game for state sanction if we allow gay marriage.

    Phantom,

    I appreciate you trying to understand where I come from...I don't think anyone is changing anyone else's mind anytime soon.

    Again, being against gay marriage does not make one a gay basher or homophobe or gay hater, etc.

  • donkey
    donkey
    If we redefine marriage to allow gay marriage, then we need to redefine it to include anyone who wants to marry. Polygamy, incest, it's all fair game for state sanction if we allow gay marriage.

    Agreed that we should allow people with other preferences to marry.

    What's the problem? What is wrong with Polygamy?

    it is easy to throw in stuff like Incest etc but thats looking for generalisations IMO,

  • Yerusalyim
    Yerusalyim

    It's not looking for generalizations.

    What's wrong with polygamy? Well, let's talk about the divorce of the polygamist, does it disolve the entire marriage, or just part of it? Who then do the kids belong to? After 5 wives and 30 kids, who pays the child support, and how much?

  • scotsman
    scotsman

    Yeru,

    These probs that would arise through polygamous divorce would need to be settled, but they would be settled legally. I find it hard to believe that this is your arguement against gay marriage. Polygamists would form a very small part of society so I find it hard to see them undermining society as a whole.

  • Satans little helper
    Satans little helper

    I didn't spot this thread til after I posted in the other newer thread.

    Polygamy was ok in the bible, as were underage marraiges. A whole gamut of situations are chronicled in the OT. That's not the point though, this debate is about how society has moved morally. People in general have put aside their bigotry against gays and have decided that they deserve equal rights. Why shouldn't it extend to marraige?

    Looking at the legal arguement, in addition to all the other inconsistencies you had laws banning mixed race marraiges not so long ago. Are you really trying to say that because it was on the law books that it was right? The legal definition of marraige was one man and one woman - so long as they were the same colour, that has changed so why shouldn't it change to include same sex partners. We are not talking about legalising beastiality or paedophilia but about affording gay people equal rights under law - one nation indivisable and all that malarky.

  • donkey
    donkey
    Well, let's talk about the divorce of the polygamist, does it disolve the entire marriage, or just part of it? Who then do the kids belong to? After 5 wives and 30 kids, who pays the child support, and how much?

    Ok let's talk about straight heteros here then (of which I am one).

    I could reasonably ask most of the same questions you just did about hetero-marriage and the same answers apply: The courts.

    If you have ever studied entities under the law you will run across all kinds of partnership agreements and the law deal with all of them. If we take God out of the picture marriage is just a legal partnership agreement, but with special privileges afforded to those forming the agreement if they are 1 man and 1 woman. I like you don't want and I am opposed to special rights for ANYONE (I am against affirmative action in all forms) - but I staunchly support equality and fairness. That being said I am not for the legalization of "gay marriage" but I am for the redefinition of marriage and removing the religion from it.

    Ever the secularist,
    Jack

  • shamus
    shamus

    Look at the apostates arguing over gay marriage, LOL!

    Don't you have anything better to do with your time? (rhetorical question).

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