Issue Facing Apostates

by Mishnah 105 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  ianao

  God_Knows:

  I am not perfect, all I know is that Jesus said all manner of sin and blasphemy against the Son of man will be forgiven, but blasphemy against the holy Ghost (that is, WITHIN that man) cannot be forgiven.

  No, that isn't what was said. You are adding man-made reasoning to reconcile scripture. That's all you are doing, period. Just as the witnesses do with their own translation. Thank you for at least acknowledging that with the parenthesis.

  Perhaps it might be better to use the example of Paul, who blasphemed Jesus and all who followed Him. And yet HE was forgiven.

  No, not really. I feel sorry for you, because by your own reasonings to Farkel:

  Need I remind you, though that the Holy Ghost IS GOD. God is a Triune being, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. So whether you blaspheme the Holy Ghost within us, or Jesus, or if you blaspheme the Father, it is still unforgiveable.

  Then Paul should NOT have been forgiven for blaspheming Jesus. Can you not see the problem here!?

  I have more thoughts on the subject, but need time to organise my thoughts....

  Remeber, the flesh is not God itself, but the Spirit that was born into that flesh is GOD. More soon....

  No, you need to go back and look at the logistics. You keep modifying your beliefs to make up for scripture you havn't absorbed/comprehended yet. Pretty soon you will modify your beliefs to the point that others in your own faith begin to disagree with you. Next thing you know, you are labeled a fruitcake and nobody will want to talk to you. You need to either go back into your protected little world and pray for guidance or pay more attention to what you are reading rather than what some two-bit preacher is telling you something is saying.
• 

  Rex B13

  :In fact, it's not exactly as simple as you indicate. If you believe in the Christian God, you can be in big trouble if the Muslems are right

  Anyone with even a minimal amount of knowledge of the life of Christ and the New Testament teachings can see that Mohammed and his Koran are pale imitations of the Biblical scriptures. You can put the Koran in the same category as the Book of Mormon.

  :or perhaps old Ba'al was the right god anyway and comes to kill you for worshipping his old enemy. Even if the Christian God existed, there are thousands of ideas about how he should be worshipped, all contradictory. If the Catholics are right, you may be toasted because you are a Baptist and vice versa.

  Actually, their is a common thread running throughout Christianity that can be grasped easily regarding salvation. Most to these alleged contradictions are only difference one would expect due to human viewpoints. Now, radical fundamentalists do teach this and that is to their detriment. Catholics and Protestants alike are recognizing their mutual similarities and the fact taht true worship of Almighty God crosses denominational lines. Denominations are NOT the body of Christ.

  :uote:
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  The problem you apostates face either way is this: You are taking one heck of a risk and the consequences for failure could not be greater.
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  :s I pointed out above, the risk is for all intents and purposes the same for all people, because for every god or belief system you follow, there are millions you reject.

  Jesus Christ proved that he was God in the flesh. The other belief systems cannot even compare to the historical evidence in favor of Christianity. It is a matter of weighing the various factors and finding the most probable contender and Christinaity wins hands down.

  :o why don't I worry? Because I take into consideration what you don't, namely the actual risks involved. The chance of any such vengeful old deity existing is as closely approximated to zero as you can possibly imagine.

  Is that like the odds of man appearing through evolutionary chance?

  :o the only one taking any chances is you, if you waste your life chasing a pipedream. It is, after all, a definite fact that there is a life before death, unless you're a fundie or a JW, that is.

  You are so wrong. First of all, you deny that Pascal's Wager is a factor here. Second, you ignore the obvious benefits gained from living a life of selfless devotion to the service of others. Only Christianity displays this consistently. Secular humanism fails miserably in practice for it has a fatal flaw:
  Without a moral guideline governed by an absolute AlmightyGod there is no basis for ANY moral claims, all such claims are subject to the whim of the individual. There is no 'common good'.
  Rex

  - Jan
• 

  SixofNine

  Rex, you said,

  Jesus Christ proved that he was God in the flesh.

  No Rex, I'm afraid not. I'd know about if that was the case.
• 

  Tina

  Hello rex.is that you wordly witness? sounds like it lol.

  And you couldn't be more wrong about humanism. 'Fatal flaw,no moral guideline'. Fallacious statement.

  Bible-thumpers always promote this wacky idea that anyone not believing in your biblical god cannot be moral people.

  Humanists adhere to principles of tolerance,ethical behaviors,responsibility,reason,compassion,rational thought,factual evidence,scientific method of inquiry,justice,fairness ,altruism.
  With the premise that we can work together to seek solutions for humankinds betterment.
  History shows that it's been the bible/church believers that have fought AGAINST such humanistic thought.They've been banished,executed,tortured by christians for challenging and criticizing religious dogma.
  Humanists dont promote the ideology "Believe /think MY way(read biblical) or YOU DIE. You'll find that genocidal mindset in christianity.
  No the fatal flaw is the intolerant,judgemental,discriminating,"absolute moralism' of the bible. Christianity has NOT proved that it follows a course of altruism and service to others. Looking at it history from a moral/ethical standpoint show quite the contrary.
  You're moralizing judgemental intolerant post is a great example of this. Keep preaching,show us the love and tolerance christians like YOu show for those like us. Tina
• 

  thinker

  Misnah,
  A number of people told Chris Columbus that if he sailed far enough in one direction he would fall right off the edge of the earth. Using your reasoning, he should have stayed home !
• 

  Sunnygal41

  Well said Tina! Duh....last time I checked even by Christian standards God created man with a FREE WILL.....

  After enduring 25 years of this back and forth yah yahing and rigid thinking I am TOTALLY turned off by so called Christianity! Jesus was a Spiritual Master sent to us to learn a better way....love....instead people turned his words into weapons to shame and judge and beat one another over the head....sad.....

  Terri
• 

  Tina

  Hi Terri
  and Welcome aboard! Yes it is sad isn't it,regards Tina
• 

  Rex B13

  Hi Tina,
  I did not say it was not possible for a secular humanist to be moral in character. Here is what I said:
  I repeat, there is absolutely no reason to recognize any moral authority or guideline in secular humanism. No moral absolute is possible for there is nothing at it's core except degenerate human reasoning.
  It is all relative to how each one perceives it. No one is accountable for any action and you can already see that in society.

  We have a world where the unborn innocents are slaughtered in the name of women's rights. We have people protesting vile murdererous, sociopaths who have killed repeatedly when they are given capital punishment. We have people derided for virtues like virginity while the disease spreading knuckleheads are cheered on. Solid, time tested institutions like the family are assailed from every (liberal) corner.
  Lastly, we have the Lamb of God blasphemed and cursed by the very people he loved enough to die for.
  You are simply repeating what you have herd from your heros here about the alleged crimes of Christianity. The effects of all religions overall has been to deal with our superstitions and fears. You point to the inquisitions of Catholic history and claim this is Christianity. That's a lie and patently absurd.
  The body of Christ is the sum total of all believers who practice the guidelines of Christ. Christianity is NOT any human led organization, though God does often act through them, just as he acts through nations in a general way to bring good to evil situations.

  How many times do you need to hear this before it sinks in?
  When are you going to leave behind your beloved JW slander of all who think differently than you?

  Romans 10:
  9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
  10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
  11 As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."
  12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,
  13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

  13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man.
  14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
  15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.
  16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
  17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

  I can very much identify with the above statements.

  18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
  19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

  I pray that you do not fall into this category, my sister.
  I also openly ask for your forgiveness if I have in any way offended you.
  Rex
• 

  Sunnygal41

  "You are simply repeating what you have herd from your heros here about the alleged crimes of Christianity. "

  Hope you don't mind me sticking a toe into this maelstrom of thought and conjecture? : - ) But, Rex, what you accuse Tina or anyone for that matter (your quote above) you must accept that bottom line you do the same thing. Because, my friend, none of us has had the liberty of living throughout history and seeing things with our own eyes. So, at some point we turn to some source as our authority or perhaps not authority but information source. Now, we can get into whether or not they have the story right or wrong, or if they had an agenda and twisted history to their own views, but unfortunately, we all do the best we can, and we all make and are responsible for decisions we make. You aren't responsible for Tina's or my decisions in life...we are. I'ts between whatever Spiritual source we believe in and us, not you! I think that is what we are kind of all trying to get at. We all need to leave each other alone as far as our belief systems go, once we've made a decision, it's our responsibility. I know I am comfortable with my choice, and I am very aware that I might have made a wrong one, but see, that is my privilege, my right. No matter how well meaning, ice cream shoved forcefully down one's throat will not be well received. : - ) We all need to leave the rabid fanaticism alone and give each other the right to worship the way we want to worship.

  Terri
• 

  Tina

  Nope rex,
  It's YOu that just doesnt get it. And of course with such a closed mindset,NOTHING is going to sink into it.
  "Repeating what Ive heard from my heroes?" Wrong.
  Then all of history must be my hero. History is an ongoing chronicle of the past. Our successes and our failures as humans.
  And if you read history objectively and critically you would find the problems you mention have always been part of that history. There is nothing new under the sun there.
  What history shows is that those who adhere to religious dogma are responsible for much of the crimes against humanity. You're moral absolutism requires you to judge and kill those who dissent.
  It shows that using an ancient book that promulgates black and white thinking is nothing but destructive to many. That it's simply all about power and control.
  It shows that you would deny basic human and civil rights to all.
  Case in point-Whatever a woman chooses to with her body is HER decision. It's between her and her conscience.You have no right to her conscience. It's a deeply personal thing.
  Life is much more complex than your simplistic and archaic notions of right and wrong.
  Humanism isn't a belief system which moralizes like intolerant judgemental bible thumpers. It takes in the whole human family,benefiting ALL with ethics tolerance and rational ideas.
  It is an attitude not a religious moral base.
  I do NOT lie,you lie,your post is a lie. You can't revise history,tho Im sure you'd like too. It speaks for itself. And as such christianity condemns itself.
  All your bluster cannot change the facts.
  Your book of myth and superstition has been found historically wanting to the nth degree.
  "Leave behind my JW slander?' Another lie from you. I am no longer a jw. Get it?
  It is you who slander and condemn people like me....romans10;13 all who call on the name of the lord will be saved....yep there it is,condemning those who think differently THAN YOU will be destroyed.
  Quoting scrips at me is a waste of time rex. You are presuming that my life is guided by these judgemental condemnatory mythical premises.
  The bible always has been and will continue to be a tool for power and control. Hence the historical and modern day abuses in its name.
  Forgive you? For what? What bible thumpers always do? Accuse those who think differntly of being in darkness? Of being condemned for not conforming to YOUR standards and guidelines of what constitutes moral and ethical behavior?
  Forgive yourself. For preaching and proselytizing intolerance,hatred,contempt and death to all who disagree. Tina