Does enforced shunning violate free will?

by poopie 36 Replies latest jw friends

  • Saethydd
    Saethydd

    Yes!!! Anything!...... (to take your example.....now your going to be arrested)

    Exactly, they go to jail because they used physical pain to get what they want. Religions like the JWs and Scientologists use emotional pain to get what they want, making it comparably bad.

    The difference is our culture has deemed personal and religious freedom as being EXTREMELY important!

    But even religious freedom is supposed to have its limits, that limit is when it starts to encroach on the liberty of other people, or when it starts to harm other people who have not chosen to follow it. For example, in the United States one can't stone a gay person just because their religious text calls for it. (Not anymore anyway)

    The JW religion both harms those who no longer follow it, and it works against a current member's liberty to choose their own religion (without being systematically persecuted) by advocating a practice that causes severe emotional damage to people who try to leave.

    You say that a religion has the right to have requirements for membership, and I agree, but they have limits to what they can require. To illustrate I'll consider this from another angle. A corporation has the right to expect certain things from its employees, but those things can't be a violation of their rights. If any corporation told you that you would be fired unless you stop talking to your family or any friends who happen to be former employees themselves, I feel fairly certain that a wrongful termination lawsuit would follow.

  • John Free
    John Free

    While pale emperor is correct in terms of 'relatives' it is enforced shunning in terms of every friend you ever had-for born-ins. Causing the undue influence which limits ones freedom. Only religion with its constitutional protections would be allowed to exert such pressure on humans.

    jwfacts.com -Shepherd the Flock of God (2011) shows that associating with a disfellowshipped nonrelative continues as a disfellowshipping offence by including such association under the categorization of brazen conduct.

    "Though this is not an exhaustive list, brazen conduct may be involved in the following if the wrongdoer has an insolent, contemptuous attitude made evident by a practice of these things:
    Willful, continued, unnecessary association with disfellowshipped nonrelatives despite repeated counsel." p.60
  • pbrow
    pbrow
    Exactly, they go to jail because they used physical pain to get what they want. Religions like the JWs and Scientologists use emotional pain to get what they want, making it comparably bad

    We live in a culture of values. Our culture has determined that physical abuse cannot be tolerated. Extortion cannot be tolerated. By making the choice to extort or cause physical abuse you are also choosing the consequences of that choice.

    But even religious freedom is supposed to have its limits, that limit is when it starts to encroach on the liberty of other people, or when it starts to harm other people who have not chosen to follow it. For example, in the United States one can't stone a gay person just because their religious text calls for it. (Not anymore anyway)

    Religious freedom does have some limits. You are correct, you cannot stone someone (physical abuse again) Someone choosing to shun you is not them encroaching on your liberty, they are execising their own liberty. The bottom line is they have the right to shun you. If I do not want to talk to you, for religious or other reasons, I can refuse to talk to you. I can even use our secular court system to enforce that you dont talk to me.

    The JW religion both harms those who no longer follow it, and it works against a current member's liberty to choose their own religion

    I agree that it can harm former members but each member has the free will to walk out the door at any time. No ms, elder, co or governing body member can stop you from leaving or joining another church. They do not have ANY power over your free will. If you choose to stay because they guilt you or threaten to not talk to you again, then you are choosing to stay. But everyone needs to realize.... YOU CAN LEAVE ANYTIME YOU WANT TO! Taking control and responsibility of your own personal freedom is worth losing friends and family to me.

    I make this arguement knowing full well that born-ins (like myself) have it extremely difficult when you are underage and the emotional blackmail does not stop when you turn 18. I get that. The good thing is that your free will is recognized by our secular society when you turn 18. You have the rest of your life to start exercising that free will and no religious group can take that away from you.(at least in the US)

    pbrow

  • Ruby456
    Ruby456

    guys pls see my attempt to start this discussion here as it was generated by this thread

    https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/6521274828324864/exhortation-coercive

    was reading a thread about free will on here and was turning it around in my mind and so decided to ask you the above question to sort out my own feelings on the subject.
  • blondie
    blondie

    I don't know if there is absolute free will.

    Every time I drive somewhere there are constraints on my exercise of free will, speed limits, stop signs/lights, signaling turns, stopping when you hit someone, etc.

    Of course you can choose not to do those things but then will be held accountable for any repercussions.

    We can still make the choice not to shun or even be shunned but give up something else. I was shunned unofficially for several jws over the years. Could I make them stop....not. But I could see that their bad opinion meant nothing to me, I still liked me. Even if they spread their venom, it was the decision of that person and it helped me see who was a real friend. I finally realized that the Borg was not the place to find a friend. So they actually helped me to leave but not in anger.

    Blondie

  • SAHS
    SAHS

    pbrow: You and I do NOT have the choice to determine who someone else can or cannot associate with.

    Exactly! When organizations such as the Watchtower corporation attempt to enforce their disingenuous and self-serving little rules upon their millions of mentally captive adherents, then they are, indeed, operating above the law – the basic law of the land which guarantees freedom from such egregious abuses of power.

  • Saethydd
    Saethydd

    We live in a culture of values. Our culture has determined that physical abuse cannot be tolerated. Extortion cannot be tolerated. By making the choice to extort or cause physical abuse you are also choosing the consequences of that choice.

    I suppose you are right, and unfortunately, emotional abuse is a lot harder identify and prove. Thus laws that prevent such abuse are not widely implemented.

    Religious freedom does have some limits. You are correct, you cannot stone someone (physical abuse again) Someone choosing to shun you is not them encroaching on your liberty, they are execising their own liberty. The bottom line is they have the right to shun you. If I do not want to talk to you, for religious or other reasons, I can refuse to talk to you. I can even use our secular court system to enforce that you dont talk to me.

    I would agree that an individual has the right to refuse contact with anyone they wish. (However, I also view doing so for the reason that you don't share the same religious view as being incredibly petulant.) It seems to me, though, that an organization had ought to be held accountable for its policies that cause emotional damage to people. Ah well, I don't expect they ever will be.

  • AverageJoe1
    AverageJoe1

    I was pulled aside a couple of months ago by two fellow elders for talking to a disfellowshipped friend of mine at the hall in the second school (we still haven't renamed it even though 'the school' no longer exists) with another elder.

    Aside from my calling them Pharisees meddling in other people's business, I suggested they read this Watchtower article: w74 1st August pp. 466-473 Maintaining a Balanced Viewpoint Toward Disfellowshipped Ones. It's gold dust when it comes to reasoning with any judgmental JW over the shunning issue, especially an elder.

    Par. 5: Congregational elders, as well as individual members of a congregation, therefore, ought to guard against developing an attitude approaching that which some Jewish rabbinical writers fomented toward Gentiles in viewing them as virtual enemies. It is right to hate the wrong committed by the disfellowshipped one, but it is not right to hate the person nor is it right to treat such ones in an inhumane way.

    Par. 9: What, then, if a congregation elder were to meet up with a person who had been disfellowshipped, perhaps in the elder’s daily routine, on the street, in his secular work or similar activity? ... but not all who slip into a sinful way become ‘deceivers and antichrists.’ So, if that one is not of that class, would not Jehovah God’s own example allow for the elder to speak words exhorting the disfellowshipped one to seek to regain a good standing with God? (my thoughts: if it's ok for an elder then why not for anyone else? After all, we are all supposed to be the same.)

    Par. 10: We may note, too, that at 1 Corinthians 5:11 the apostle warns against mixing in company with one who “is” a fornicator or practiser of some other kind of serious wrongdoing. What, however, of the one who has been disfellowshipped for being that kind of person but who thereafter, either at an early point or at a later point in time, gives consistent evidence of discontinuing such wrong practice, stopping it? Can it be said that he or she still “is” a fornicator or whatever type of wrongdoer such a one was that caused him or her to be as “leaven” toward the congregation?

    Par. 21: As to disfellowshipped family members (not minor sons or daughters) living outside the home, each family must decide to what extent they will have association with such ones. This is not something that the congregational elders can decide for them. What the elders are concerned with is that “leaven” is not reintroduced into the congregation through spiritual fellowshipping with those who had to be removed as such “leaven.” Thus, if a disfellowshipped parent goes to visit a son or daughter or to see grandchildren and is allowed to enter the Christian home, this is not the concern of the elders. Such a one has a natural right to visit his blood relatives and his offspring. Similarly, when sons or daughters render honour to a parent, though disfellowshipped, by calling to see how such a one’s physical health is or what needs he or she may have, this act in itself is not a spiritual fellowshipping.

    I got the rebuttal that this is "old information" and we have updated procedures since then so I replied, "well how come it has not been edited out of the WT Library then? Also I find this much more in harmony with how Jesús treated non-Christians, even notorious sinners, rather than the attitude you two are displaying!" I had no further bother.
    The WTS has taken disfellowshipping way too far and goes against even their own original thoughts when they criticised the Catholics back in the 50s for doing the very same thing. As Angus Stewart said when questioning Geoff Jackson in the ARC trial two years ago, 'there is no graceful way to leave the Jehovah's Witnesses'!
    I hope that WT article helps some of you.
  • Simon
    Simon

    "enforced" shunning ... really depends on how it's enforced.

    It's really all voluntary. They have rules. People chose to join and follow them. If you leave, like many do, you don't need to follow them. But people who still want to can.

  • Giordano
    Giordano

    Welcome to the Forum AverageJoe and thanks for sharing.I thought family visits were a no no.

    Par. 21: As to disfellowshipped family members (not minor sons or daughters) living outside the home, each family must decide to what extent they will have association with such ones. This is not something that the congregational elders can decide for them.

    This was 1974 if I read that correctly. Wonder if 1975 had anything to do with it.That's a considerable reserve from today's hard stance.

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