Does enforced shunning violate free will? (page 2)

pbrow

If an individual values being a member of the jehovahs witnesses organization, shunning is a required in various degrees. My mother is a jdub who chooses to define shunning loosely.

This is the important part, that all of us do well to understand for our own benefit sooner rather than later..... Shunning is a choice made by individual jdubs that has a specific set of consequences. Choosing not to shun is also a choice made by individual jdubs that has a specific set of consequences.

If your family is shunning you it is because they value being a member of the group more then they value you as a person. They are not being forced to shun you, they are choosing to shun you.

There is enough shit in this world. Choose to divorce yourself from cancerous people wherever and whoever they are.

pbrow

Saethydd

There is no such thing as "enforced shunning". That's not to minimise the powerful, coercive effect of Watchtowers hold over its members but ultimately shunning is a choice that every individual JW must be held accountable for.

Perhaps I am wrong, but I was under the impression that freely and openly associating with a disfellowshipped person is something one can get disfellowshipped for. Therefore, if that person does not shun, then they will be shunned themselves. That sounds like "enforced shunning" to me.

pale.emperor

Perhaps I am wrong, but I was under the impression that freely and openly associating with a disfellowshipped person is something one can get disfellowshipped for. Therefore, if that person does not shun, then they will be shunned themselves. That sounds like "enforced shunning" to me.

That's what i used to think. But actually, in Shepherd The Flock Of God page 116 it says:

So there is a loop hole. But because this is in the secret elders manual the rank and file wont know this.

I thought about the OP's question when i first left. The majority of JW's who are actively shunning are doing so because they're told to. It has nothing to do with the perceived sin the person may have committed. This is proven in the fact that most family members will still speak to you until your announcement is made. If you ask them they say its to "keep the congregation clean" or that they "choose to stay loyal to Jehovah". Of course some will pull 1 Corinthians 5:11 out of their ass and use this as "proof". But this isn't really the case because if the GB abolished shunning i guarantee that 99.9999999% of JW's would suddenly start talking to you again.

It violates free will because the person doing the shunning may want to talk to someone, but they know there'll be consequences if they do. When in fact, there shouldn't be. An abusive relationship indeed.

pbrow

Saeth... you are not wrong in that individuals can be df or da for openly associated with a df or da person. I would question you as to what you mean by "force"? The company is telling and individual... if you want to be a member you have to shun... So an individual has to say "i want to be a member therefore I am making the choice to shun this person" If they CHOOSE to shun then they have made a value judgement for themselves that being a member is more important than contact with the person who is to be shunned.

Continuing to place blame on a group when the responsibility belongs to the individual for making their own value judgement just seems pointless.

Your mother/father/sister/brother is making a value judgement that being a part of the group is more important than their relationship with you.

pbrow

Saethydd

Saeth... you are not wrong in that individuals can be df or da for openly associated with a df or da person. I would question you as to what you mean by "force"? The company is telling and individual... if you want to be a member you have to shun... So an individual has to say "i want to be a member therefore I am making the choice to shun this person" If they CHOOSE to shun then they have made a value judgement for themselves that being a member is more important than contact with the person who is to be shunned.

Well, couldn't that argument be applied to anything? "No officer, I didn't extort money from him, he just chose to keep his kneecaps intact, instead of keeping the money he had in his safe."

If you are taking a negative action against a certain behavior then you are enforcing against the behavior.

just fine

While I agree that the Watchtower organization coerces people to shun it's still the individual people that choose to do it. My family chooses religion over family. Some people choose drugs or alcohol over family, mine aren't addicts they are crazy religious people. Until they take responsibility for their own actions the shunning will continue.

Part of the allure of religions like the JWs is people don't have to think for themselves or take responsibility for their actions. All the decisions are made for them.

eyeuse2badub

Do not let the shun-of-a-bitches run your life! If anyone asks, just tell them it was "necessary business" and that it's none of their business!

just saying!

pbrow

Well, couldn't that argument be applied to anything? "No officer, I didn't extort money from him, he just chose to keep his kneecaps intact, instead of keeping the money he had in his safe."
If you are taking a negative action against a certain behavior then you are enforcing against the behavior.

Yes!!! Anything!...... (to take your example.....now your going to be arrested)

The difference is our culture has deemed personal and religious freedom as being EXTREMELY important!

You and I have the choice to determine who we do and do not assoiciate with. You and I do NOT have the choice to determine who someone else can or cannot associate with.

The jdub orgainzation is simply making membership requirements. The individual dubs are choosing to be a part of that organization. That is their personal and religious freedom at work. Does it suck? You bet. Is it bullshit? You bet. Does it fuck the most important sub group of jdubs... born ins? ABSOLUTELY.

Everything comes with a price... Religious and personal freedom is very expensive... but it is worth every penny and more importantly every ounce of blood that was spilled for it.

At the end of the day.... dubs and other high control groups are choosing to cheapen the price of freedom and just give their choices away.

pbrow

edit... for the record, this is my 666 post.. praise allah!!

Fairlane

The constant drip of shunning policy from watchtower laced with the consequential action if a person fails to comply (which could result in being condemned at the big A if you defy the mother organization ) is an action which contributes to brainwashing. This concentration of fear does imo produce an enforcing climate to ensure compliance. Any belief system of indoctrination which results in brainwashing through fear for ones life could certainly violate the free will of those unfortunate enough to be so afflicted.

poopie

Yes enforced shunning is a form of abuse. The interesting thing is the shunned are hurt just as badly as the shunners. When you force an otherwise loveing person to do something that's unloving you also injure yourself in the process. That's why we see many young ones walking away and those still in that are hard line stunners look unhappy. Those who do not shun seem happier with themselves I have noticed that. Thanks for comments I carefully read them all. Because I have learned one thing in life do not tell people how they should feel or think because they have free will. That even includes you bethel lurkers.

Does enforced shunning violate free will?

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