Watchtower Organisation - it's all over, bar the shouting

by slimboyfat 199 Replies latest members campaign

  • Magnum
    Magnum

    slimboyfat, no, I have not visited other churches; however, I am around churchies (church people) all day every day. I don't know about their numbers, but they are much more shallow and clueless than JWs. They can't find the books in the Bible and don't know even know what books are in it.

    A guy I've known for decades recently tried to get me to visit his church. I explained to him why I wouldn't - because his religion does not affect his life any at all except for his going to church maybe twice a month. I quoted Lu 13:24 and told him that the Greek word translated "exert" or "strive" or whatever is "agonizethse" transliterated (might be a little off on that; at work and don't have time to verify), from which we get our English word "agonize." I told him that if he has the truth, he has to live it - that it has to affect his life. His response? "Well, is that in the New Testament?" I guess he was going to make the point that if it's in the OT, it doesn't apply.

    I was thinking "Damn dude, you're trying to get me to go to your church because you think you've found truth, and you don't even know that the book of Luke is in the New Testament?" My point? The churches don't even factor in to this to me. They're irrelevant - out of the picture.

    I say that JWdom basically has collapsed. It is nothing like it used to be. My deceased JW grandfather would be disgusted if he could see what it is now. As I mentioned above, the preaching is virtually non-existent. JWdom is not attracting higher-caliber people. It cannot defend its doctrine or policy or history. It is being exposed.

    It will continue to be exposed and opposed. I think more and more will wake up. I see no high-caliber JWs anymore. Of all the people I mentioned above (the engineers, doctors, etc.), the smarted one to me was the armed forces pilot and he ended up on this site. JW theology/doctrine does not allow for an organization that just lingers on. Many thought Covid was it - the beginning of the end, and then... it was back to the old JW routine. I try to keep my finger on the pulse of JWdom; I'm feeling a weak pulse. I'm sensing apathy and a lack of willingness to sacrifice for the org.

    I think any current appearance of strength or growth is temporary.

  • jehovaxx
    jehovaxx

    They are in decline but trying to fudge the numbers this is what the no more reporting hours is for.

    It will be very clear over the next few years that Yang ones are not getting baptised. As the older ones die off there certainly are not that many coming in from door to door because that has scaled right back to hardly anything.

    the fact that sisters are doing microphones and taking ministry groups is very telling. There are just not that many young men to take over as the old men get older

  • Magnum
    Magnum
    jehovaxx: They are in decline but trying to fudge the numbers this is what the no more reporting hours is for.

    Absolutely! Everything the org does is for its own interests. It is hurting. All the new changes made in the last few decades are for self-preservation - the website, the broadcasts, etc. Probably over a decade ago on this site, we had serious discussions about whether the org had hired a PR firm to help it become more mainstream because it saw the writing on the wall. It knew back then it was in trouble.

    Yep, it is struggling. It has instructed JWs to not write in questions anymore because it can't answer them. It fears JWs' being exposed to opposition; it is warning them more and more about apostates. I think it doesn't want them having deep discussions with outsiders anymore so they won't be exposed to negative info, questions they can't answer, etc. Didn't they instruct JWs at carts to not get into deep discussions? I think that's why the new emphasis is on showing love (new brochure and instructions for ministry).

    Yep, the org is hurting - sick. It is not strong and vibrant.

  • jehovaxx
    jehovaxx

    Yes this is perhaps why the door to door work is scaled back so much. The internet changed everything. Some PIMI calls on someone who has been watching e JW videos and has some genuine questions, what can the PIMI do?

    The GB has an interest in scaling back this is why congregations are not getting around their territory as they used to.

    justvstanding by the trolly but try not to talk to anyone is what is happening now.

  • joe134cd
    joe134cd

    Jehovaxx please review the following link.

    https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/4801405261447168/comparison-between-jws-lds-sda-mexico

    What gives this credibility is it’s coming from a Mormon perspective. Talking about the situation in my country, which is outside the Americas and is 1st world. The census figure has roughly been x2, as that recorded by Wt. It is still currently like that to this present day. My argument, here in, is if Wt were seriously fudging numbers the censes us would have to show it, as is the case with the LDS. This is just not the case. Wt if anything under reports or membership. Anecdotally I have heard similar in other countries around the world.

  • truthlover123
    truthlover123

    Magnum- I remember sitting around the table after dinners, assemblies, book studies and good, deep discussions were the norm. How it has changed over the years! Now you are classed as someone asking questions, spiritually sick or marked for the question. It seems the crackdown came with Ray Franz's DF and congregations were deleted, so the "harsh words" would not spread to others and cause doubts. Now, it's answer out of the paragraph -usually word for word- or have research out of the WT publications. No real thought - bobbleheads.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    Magnum you make many good points. The organisation is certainly greatly changed from what it was, especially the dumbing down and all the cutbacks. An overall decline in membership seems inevitable at some point because the large cohort that came in during the 70s and 80s are now very old, and fewer and fewer of their children and grandchildren and great grandchildren are sticking to the religion.

    And yet they can and probably will carry on for a long time, hollowed out as they are, because, for whatever reason, they still seem to be marginally better at retaining members, and gaining occasional new members, than most other churches.

  • Magnum
    Magnum

    slimboyfat, here's something else I've been thinking about... concerning the difference between churchdom and JWdom. Churchdom has been stale and shallow for decades, so its supporters have nothing to which to make a comparison. However, the JW religion billed itself as "the truth" - the one and only true religion. It bragged about its earth-covering, locust-like, bold witness. Now, it's not even close to living up to that billing and the preaching is lame and some JWs are, I believe, confused. When the JW religion is exposed and countered, it stings JWs, whereas church people are not really exposed and are so shallow, they don't even know what their own churches teach and have never thought they have the one and only truth; to them, it's just going through the motions for an hour at church a couple of Sundays a month, and the rest of the time, religion doesn't even enter their minds. So, the exposure and opposition JWdom is receiving is wearing on it, but churchdom is not really receiving such exposure and opposition. The only opposition it receives is that which is against religion in general.

    Also, churchdom does not have a time limit - an expiration date. The many churchies I've dealt with over decades never even think about Armageddon, the great tribulation, etc. JWdom's expiration date is past. It's 2024. "This system" was supposed to be gone decades ago. JWs look more and more wrong with each passing day/month/year.

    So, it's like churchies are on a train passing through a landscape with no distinct features and they have no clocks, watches, etc. They can't tell where they are, whether they're late, etc., and they don't really care; they're just satisfied with the ride. However, the JW train landscape has distinct features and JWs have clocks. Some of them have to be thinking "hey, we're really late, and look out the window. Something's wrong; we're not supposed to be here. Something's wrong with this route. Also the train rules have changed so much." Also, all along their route, people on the outside are pointing out how late they are, how wrong their route is, how dysfunctional their train is, how incompetent the train personnel are, how corrupt the train company is, etc. JWs with any sense of discernment have to be noticing.

    The JW religion is in trouble because it claims to be the one and only true religion and its theology has an expiration date. Some JWs have to be thinking something's wrong.

    I've read a lot on the exJW reddit about JWs' being spoiled by the pandemic and not wanting to return to in-person meetings. Many half-heartedly tune in on Zoom. The zeal for the ministry is nothing like it used to be. It seems that many JWs are becoming complacent. That spirit of complacency is contagious. I've seen it in athletics. A team can win or lose based on its mindset. A crowd can cheer on a team and move it to play better and win; but, on the other hand, a lack of spirit or motivation can cause a team to lose. Those who attend meetings with half-full halls are probably not as motivated as they otherwise would be. I believe the spirit of complacency will spread. Younger JWs are seeing old-timers who gave their lives and now have nothing - no retirement, no savings, etc.; these younger ones are thinking they don't want to be like that.

    I believe that several different "systems" within the sick JW "body" are ailing. As in a literal body, these systems communicate with each other and are connected in feedback loops. When the body gets far enough away from its homeostasis, its normal operating condition, it crashes. I believe that the org leaders are aware of the sickness and are desperately trying to fix the org's ailing parts, desperately working behind the scenes to cure the sickness.

    At this point, I think that all it can do is morph into a more mainstream churchlike religion, but if it does, it will no longer be the JW religion that we knew in the past. It will have crashed at that point. And, to some extent, it has already crashed in that it has become more mainstream with its website, broadcasts, pop-like music, talk show, etc.

    Some years ago, the org said that JWs had made progress since the old phonograph witnessing days in that individual JWs learned to advertise and boldly defend the truth without depending on recordings. Now, JWdom is in a way reverting to that old way. JWs use videos, etc. to preach. They now point people to their website for answers. It seems that the leaders no longer want JWs engaging in open Bible discussions... for obvious reasons. If moving away from phonograph witnessing was progress, what is what they are doing now?

    Again, I say JWdom is sick, weak, floundering, Maybe the numbers are looking OK now, but I think the morale, or lack thereof, is going to spread more and more and the numbers are going to go down.

  • DesirousOfChange
    DesirousOfChange
    I say JWdom is sick, weak, floundering, Maybe the numbers are looking OK now, but I think the morale, or lack thereof, is going to spread more and more and the numbers are going to go down. ~ Magnum

    I think you are spot on!

    But the real and only factor (to WT itself) is: How are contributions?

    I think a lot of the JWs -- the complacent ones that are born-ins and do not really know their doctrines (past or present) -- may actually be giving more as a result of guilt. They know they are not pioneering. They know they are not "doing more". They are irregular in attendance and perhaps even inactive in service (though the new policy of no field reports should help that). Thus, they think they are good by tossing in a few extra buck vs the giving of more time.

    And I really believe that is what is most important on the WT's agenda right now. They seem to be really strapped for cash. So, if JWLite keeps more members giving more contributions, all is good in WT World.


  • Magnum
    Magnum

    DesirousOfChange, I definitely get your point and think it's 100% valid. Maybe some are giving more as a result of guilt - almost as if they can sort of buy their way.

    They seem to be really strapped for cash.

    Check out the excerpt below from the link below. The words come from somebody in the know.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/caqhvq/natural_disaster_relief_work_a_scam_my_familys/

    **********

    First Watchtower is extremely cash poor. What does this mean? A multi billion dollar corporate entity can own such things as $1 billion chunk of real estate in Brooklyn but if it can’t pay the electric bill it means nothing. This was the state they were in 1997 when my dad started working at Paterson. My dad has told me that Watchtower was basically living paycheck to paycheck to keep the lights on despite having billions in assets. I’m 100% confident that this was when the decision to move out of Brooklyn was made. My dad told us one day that the days of seeing “Watchtower” from the Brooklyn Bridge were limited, this was in 1998 or 1999 I don’t really remember exactly. I’m also fairly certain that the decision to take over local KHs to be able to access cash from the sale of the real estate was made then as well. I’m sure it took a long time to work out the legal aspects of this and that’s why we have been seeing the implementation of this over the last 10 years.

    Second the amount of mismanagement of resources was astounding. My dad came home one night and I remember distinctly hearing him and my mom talking about the fact that “some hair-brained kid in the purchasing department” had bought $700,000 worth of toilet paper because he got a good deal on it. This coming right after my dad had discovered that they had like a 5 year supply of toilet paper stockpiled across Brooklyn Bethel, Watchtower Farms, and Paterson Bethel. I have lots of other examples however this one is my favorite.

    **********

    if JWLite keeps more members giving more contributions, all is good in WT World.

    Yeah, maybe that will keep things going for a while. I, of course, don't know what's going to happen. I think, though, that even these newer model (Iighter duty) JWs will eventually succumb to the opposition, the failed prophecy, the apathy, etc. and then the monetary support will dry up.

    But, as I mentioned, I don't know. I am baffled that my relatives are still JWs. I just cannot conceive of how they could be. In years past, they seemed to be more discerning, level-headed, reasonable, etc. They would even criticize the org for certain things. All that has changed. They have gone into cult mode. My mother used to be critical of corny stuff, but she seems to like the JW music videos, the broadcasting, etc.

    Maybe I give too much credit to the current JWs. Maybe the smart, discerning, reasonable, honest ones have all (or mostly all) left, and the ones who remain are of such a caliber that they're in for good; they'll never wake up. My point is that I was wrong in years past about the caliber of JW; I thought most would have left by now. Maybe we are in this for a longer haul than I imagined.

    It's interesting to watch. I can't wait to see what the next few years will bring.

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