Did you KNOW Ray and Cynthia or the legal copyright holder? Only a few maybe had limited contact.
I have just done a search for "Governing body Holy spirit" and found this thread.
notsurewheretogo his OP was great........
I was an elder until March 2012 until I resigned. I then stopped going to meetings in October 2012 and have enjoyed 9 months of freedom that I have found to be jouful! I loved learning TTATT and sites like this and jwfacts.comhave been excellent.
I told the elders that I needed a break and that they should not contact me unless it was a social visit and true to their word they have done that. It will be nearly a year soon that I faded and I expect a visit soon.
I don't want to disassociate or be disfellowshipped for one reason. I have 3 kids and their grandparents, who are still in the truth, play an important role in their lives. My wife, who is still in but does not have great health relies on her parents to help out a lot. To lose this would be a nightmare, that is the only reason why I have not officially packed in this wacko religion.
But I do want to explain the situation to the elders.
I have a folder full of notes made from my research, all binded in a logical manner in various topics on things I disagree with, like blood, the cross, 1914, 607 BCE etc but it would be pointless to show this to an elder and it would lead to me being an apostate.
I am thinking about presenting this situation and logic, see what you think. I want to say to the elders that if they can resolve this situation that I am about to mention then we can go from there.
My logical situation is this.
Prior to the 1960's the Governing Body said that anyone who had an organ transplant should be disfellowshipped due to the fact that it was consumption of human flesh (cannibalism) and that you absorbed the traits of the person who donated the organ.
The fact that you were to be disfellowshipped shows that the Governing Body deemed it that this doctrine or requirement was essential to please Jehovah and have a relationship with Him.
Sometime in the 1960's, 1962 I think it was the Govering Body changed this to say it was not a disfellowshipping matter, you did not absorb the traits of the person and it was not cannibalism. It was now a conscience matter.
So my question to the elders that I want a satisifactory answer to is the doctrine to disfellowship based on cannablism of an organ transplant, did that have Holy Spirit approval?
Did the Governing Body get blessed when they released that doctrine? If the elders say yes then how did the Holy Spirit get it wrong that would actually cost a Witness to lose their life if they needed an organ transplant?
If the Holy Spirit did not bless that doctrine but later corrected the Governing Body then that means the Governing Body can release doctrines that are not blessed by Holy Spirit and can have life damaging consequences.
If Holy Spirit got it wrong and actually taught a false doctrine then I want nothing to do with God, if Holy Spirit corrected the Govering Body then the Governing Body can release doctrines that are not blessed by Holy Spirit (avoiding use inspired) and thus I want nothing more to do with a religion that does this.
My question to users on this forum are these:
I see my logic that has no answer, either Holy Spirit teaches us wrong things or the men teach us wrong things...it's one or the other...is that right? Is there any answer that would negate my logic?
Because if they can't answer or resolve this situation then there is no point in going into anything else...
Some feedback would be welcome!
Prior to 1960's if you needed an organ tranplant to live and you wanted to be faithful to Jehovah you had to die.
After the 1960's if you needed an organ tranplant to live and you wanted to be faithful to Jehovah you could choose to have the transplant, live and be faithful.
The question is, the teaching prior to 1960's...who got it wrong? The men or the Holy Spirit...my logic dictates it doesn't matter as either answer shows you can't trust your life in this religion.
Are my facts correct? (I don't have the WT references on hand but will do)
Can any JW or the elders refute my logic so as to continue the lie that the Governing Body are the Channel of God?
What would they come back at me with?
Then he responded with his second post on the thread
I'm amazed at all the responses and they all the say the same thing...which is telling.
Remember I have done 18 months of research, read "Crisis of Conscience", "Captives to a Concept"...many Steve Hussain and Richard Dawkins books...I know, as a former elder, what elders must do...but yet again I served for many years with this body...I have a good relationship with them all...and whilst all the books and experiences label "elders" the same the way this is not true...many on the body are sincere men who like me just want to know the truth about things...
What about playing Devil's Advocate? Like I could say that I have a friend who has this view but as for me I'm a believer etc? That way they get the point but I still pledge my loyalty to them...
It does seem though that I wil say nothing...
I'll need to clarify that it was 1967 that transplants were a nono and 1980 it was reversed....thanks Donny.
This was written 3 years ago but is still valid now and will help doubting ones today.
I see your point Tal. There is so much information on JWN about the contents of COC that we don't nee to recommend the book until it's released officially
Anyone want to put odds on this being made available either at a sensible price point or donation based any time in 2016?
Kate, that's great that you did a search, and tested out my thoughts - much appreciated! I think this issue has been stirred, perhaps unwittingly,.and it's good to take a deep breath and look at the facts. xx tal : ))
I doubt it WMF......when you read what the CPH....has written in her statement it seems she has good intentions.....but doesn't set any firm deadlines due to her ill health.
That sounds like the ideal reason to do the sensible thing of unburdening herself and releasing it free into the public domain. Let others do the worrying about translation and just get on with her own life happy and smug in the knowledge she did a good thing.
Sounds like a plan to me.
Good points Tal & Kate - an addendum of sorts to this website? With points explored and refs to the book? That does mean extra space/ work for owner - or perhaps a sticky post on exjwreddit then?
The important thing is getting the info to places dubs will comfortably - ish look.
Its revolting that despite Cedars honest, straightforward attempts to resolve this with CH - which he has done TWICE to her satisfaction - meddling exJW Christians with an axe to grind have jumped in to shit stir , now for the third time when the whole thing was dead and buried according to cedars and CH.
What IS this doing to the reputation of serious minded exjw's, activists or not, in the eyes of wavering dubs?
Can't we just respect the copyright here and stop bending over backwards to defend some clown who slapped his logo on the back and pirated copies in an attempt to promote his website? I have a copy of it in English and Spanish. You want it, it's yours. I've already read it and don't need it anymore. And it's not like he's been truthful in the matter to begin with. He's insisted that the printing was done by his friend solely, yet when that same person was contacted he fully admitted that this printing was an 'arrangement' between the two. He's lying through his teeth and blaming others including JWFacts when he's the one who's been involved with this from its embryonic stages. Ray himself contacted a former mod here and complained about pirating, now the copyright owners are doing the same. That should be that. Either pay for the book, borrow/buy it from somebody or wait until the copyright owners distribute it again as they are indicating. When there's that much of a demand as some are indicating, the supply will find a way to increase.
LMSA Can't we just respect the copyright here and stop bending over backwards to defend some clown who slapped his logo on the back and pirated copies in an attempt to promote his website?
My point is he has admitted fault AND made restitution to the owners satisfaction, what do you want - blood? The people who started this shit storm had links to it on their YouTube channel - I have received links to it even on this site in the past. The complaints are hypocritical and WAY out of proportion to the deed done.
That ' clown' has helped way more people out than many folks ever will.
I am with you Diog, well said I have read the reddit OP and Cedars was sincere about his wrong doing.
I have also had an email from Deborah the CRH after asking her some questions. She was very swift in replying within hours, which I was impressed with, but pretty much repeated what she said in her public statement. I won't say anything else as it was a private email except to say she seemed more concerned about warning me about PDF copyright law than anything else. I thanked her and didn't get into a debate. But I was unsatisfied with her response.