Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Baker Who Refused to Bake Cake for Gay Couple

by Simon 252 Replies latest social current

  • LoveUniHateExams
    LoveUniHateExams

    how can you refuse to make a cake for someone’s wedding, if your business is making wedding cakes? - Slim it's just a bakery, their business is baking cakes, buns, rolls, etc.

    In this instance, the baker had been asked to bake a custom made cake to others' specifications and the baker found certain details to go against personal beliefs.

    Suppose the law had come down on the side of the gay couple, i.e. bakers were now compelled by law to make things specified by others that go against the baker's beliefs.

    You could have the following situation ...

    Racist white people go to a black-owned bakery. They order a cake, made to their own specifications. They want 'I love the South' on one side and a confederate flag on the other. On the top of the cake they want a noose and gallows, with a black figure dangling. They also want 4 or 5 white figures standing around, laughing, smiling and clapping.

    As it stands, the black baker can legally refuse to make such a cake.

    I don't want that law to change ...

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    Celebrating a wedding is not offensive. If a business owner thinks otherwise and wants to discriminate on the basis of his beliefs then he’s the one who’s got a problem. He can have those beliefs all he wants but he should not be allowed to use a business to project that prejudice in public. Why? Because it’s rightly against the law to discriminate in a public setting on the basis of race, gender or sexuality. You can’t refuse a service because someone is black and you can’t refuse a service because someone is gay. It’s really incredibly simple.

    People comparing a wedding cake to asking someone to collaborate in making something offensive need to have a talk with themselves. It’s a wedding cake. Get a grip.

    This forum may be a bastion for prejudiced views (down to 17%, quite a minority) but thank goodness society is headed is a completely different direction. Enjoy your Pyrrhic victory.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-court-baker-poll/most-americans-oppose-businesses-refusing-to-serve-gay-people-reuters-ipsos-poll-idUSKCN1J02WN

  • Ruby456
    Ruby456

    loads of caveats in this ruling. The civil rights commission is considered to be biased towards Phillips by saying

    The opinion cited the following comment from a Colorado commissioner during a public hearing:
    "Freedom of religion and religion has been used to justify all kinds of discrimination throughout history, whether it be slavery, whether it be the holocaust. And to me it is one of the most despicable pieces of rhetoric that people can use to use their religion to hurt others."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-44361162

    secondly a creative person can refuse to do make something that violates their inner being on the grounds that their creativity is closely linked to their beliefs.

    both reasons seem clear enough I guess.

    But businesses do need to be impersonal in their dealings with their customers and this is one of the hallmarks of our institutions. in this case both the baker and civil rights commission were not neutral and impersonal. but on the other hand a work of art doesn't generally come under the impersonal banner and courts took this view.

  • LoveUniHateExams
    LoveUniHateExams

    SBF, go back and read this thread carefully.

    The baker didn't refuse to serve a gay person because of the person's sexuality, the baker refused to bake a cake that celebrates something that goes against the baker's beliefs, i.e. same-sex marriage.

    Celebrating a wedding is not offensive - you're missing the point.

    If the law came down on the side of the gay couple, it would mean that bakers could be forced to bake something that they don't agree with or find offensive.

    If that happened, my above scenario could be a possibility.

    Why are you having trouble grasping these points?!

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    What about people in business who oppose mixed race marriages? Should they be allowed to refuse to make cakes for mixed race couples? If it’s against their “beliefs”?

    Thank goodness such prejudice is supported by a vanishingly small segment of the population now - only 14% support prejudice against 72% on the side of customers doing nothing more offensive than getting married.

    Amazing how out of touch this forum is.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-court-baker-poll/most-americans-oppose-businesses-refusing-to-serve-gay-people-reuters-ipsos-poll-idUSKCN1J02WN

    New research shows nearly 5% of people now identify as gay, rising to 8% among millennials - refutation of the nonsense on this forum a few months ago about gay population be “exaggerated” and only 2% or some such rubbish.

    https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2018/05/23/same-sex-marriage-poll-americans/638587002/

  • LoveUniHateExams
    LoveUniHateExams

    What about people in business who oppose mixed race marriages? Should they be allowed to refuse to make cakes for mixed race couples? If it’s against their “beliefs”? - yes. Then the baker's bigotry will be on display to the whole world, and business will likely be affected as potential customers boycott the bakery. The baker would be punished in an organic manner, not by fiat.

    You're still not getting to grips with the issue I made in my previous post ...

    "If the law came down on the side of the gay couple, it would mean that bakers could be forced to bake something that they don't agree with or find offensive.

    If that happened, my above scenario could be a possibility."

    ********************************************************************************

    Amazing how out of touch this forum is - I've already said my personal opinion is that if I were a baker I'd bake a wedding cake for a gay couple. But I also said a law shouldn't force a baker to go along with something that goes against their beliefs.

    This forum isn't out of touch at all.


  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    Let me get this straight, you believe businesses should be allowed to refuse mixed race couples? Really? You are aware this is illegal? I don’t think even the BNP support such a policy these days.

    You complain it would mean that people who don’t like gay marriage would need to make gay wedding cakes. So what? And people who don’t like black people need to serve black people too. Diddums. Get over it.

    The polling shows only 14% of Americans support the “right” to refuse gay customers. I’d say that’s a minority, and out of touch.

    But perhaps not surprising since JWs are the most homophobic religious group polled and that’s our background.

  • _Morpheus
    _Morpheus

    They didnt refuse to serve them. They refused to apply their artistic talent. They would have and offered to bake them a cake.

    So slim i take it you would be ok woth being forced to advertise a jw convention?

    “Jws are the one true religion. Follow the lead of the governing body. Millions now living will never die”

    youd be ok woth being forced to make that billboard?

  • John Free
    John Free

    Very sad outcome indeed. Reminded me of a case in the UK in 2013 where hotel owners turned away a gay couple- the UK court ordered the backward couple to pay damages- too right. Evidently the USA is a little more rooted in our backward christian origins. If you are providing a service to the public don’t be homophobic ! Who cares about the poor bakers fuckin conscience what about how the couple in question feel at being separated and stigmatised because of the way that they were born? If you can’t show equality in the service industry then change jobs.

  • LoveUniHateExams
    LoveUniHateExams

    you believe businesses should be allowed to refuse mixed race couples? - no!

    I believe bakers should be allowed to refuse to bake customised wedding cakes for mixed-race couples who are getting married. Then people will choose other, more open-minded bakers and the bakers will lose business. They'll be punished organically rather than by fiat.

    You complain it would mean that people who don’t like gay marriage would need to make gay wedding cakes. So what? And people who don’t like black people need to serve black people too. Diddums. Get over it - it would also mean that black bakers would have to make custom made cakes ordered by white racists. Diddums? Get over it?

    At least you're now starting to address my issue.

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