What's wrong with being right and demonstrating it? AlanF, you go boy!!
What resurrects, the person or a perfect copy?
by JH 99 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Phantom Stranger
If you take feedback about your presentation as a personal attack because you don't understand it, you're choosing to take it that way - you do not have to. Don't be a victim, AlanF - you obviously know better.
I was providing feedback about your communication. It was free, and obviously you're free to ignore it -but if you take it as an attack, that would be sad. Someone offering you feedback is a mark of respect, not an attack.
If you think that your communication was perfect, look at the results. Let go of the righteousness inside the coconut shell for a minute and see how you can serve these people you want to serve more effectively. Of course, if you are serving an abstraction called "truth", this becomes irrelevant.
Have a nice day, everybody.
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AlanF
Phantom Stranger said:
: If you take feedback about your presentation as a personal attack because you don't understand it,
I didn't say that. I said that I didn't understand anything you said, and therefore, that unless (you do understand that word, I hope) you can explain yourself in an understandable manner, I'll have to take your remarks as a personal attack. Your reply here forces me to conclude that your comments were intended as a personal attack since it contains nothing of substance.
Why is understanding simple English sentences so difficult for some people?
: you're choosing to take it that way - you do not have to.
You provided no specific feedback. All you did was make an observation about me as a person -- which is completely useless, and without specifics can only be viewed as a personal attack.
Even after I specifically stated that I didn't understand what you said, you still didn't provide any specific feedback. Only this:
: Don't be a victim, AlanF - you obviously know better.
Now there's personal attack if I ever saw one.
: I was providing feedback about your communication.
Totally useless without specifics.
: It was free,
Big deal.
: and obviously you're free to ignore it
I can only "ignore it" since you didn't give any feedback that I could comment on.
: -but if you take it as an attack,
Once again, I didn't. I used the phrase "unless you can explain yourself." That has changed.
: that would be sad. Someone offering you feedback is a mark of respect, not an attack.
Offering what merely claims to be feedback, when in reality nothing of substance is fed back, is indeed a mark of disrespect, and an ad hominem.
: If you think that your communication was perfect, look at the results.
Hey, I'm dealing with an emotional Christian here. Such people are not known for having brains firing on all cylinders. I suppose you could do better? Now that would be an example of specific feedback.
: Let go of the righteousness
Another personal attack.
: inside the coconut shell
Please use standard English.
: for a minute and see how you can serve these people you want to serve more effectively.
Who said I'm interested in serving unthinking religious people? I'm proving a point. If they want to accept it fine. If not, that's their lookout.
: Of course, if you are serving an abstraction called "truth", this becomes irrelevant.
Precisely. I'm not in the habit of serving baby food.
AlanF
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Phantom Stranger
AlanF, I erred. Offering feedback where none is desired is inappropriate on my part. You have stated that you want specifics to respond to, so you have shown that you want to debate my feedback, not accept it as possibly valuable. I have no interest in debating you about how you could communicate better - partly because trying to be right on an Internet discussion board is a silly waste of time for all concerned. Communication is not what happens when we talk - it's what happens when others "get" our intentions and our concepts. As such, it's pretty easy to see when we're communicating and when we're not.
You have said that feedback without specifics is worthless. I have had several instances where people have given me feedback about situations where I could have been more effective, without specifics, and I have looked at my actions and their results, and seen how I could have performed better - because I wanted to be as effective as possible with as many different kinds of people as possible. If I provide you with a laundry list, in the present atmosphere it would just be argument fodder - and as such a waste of our time.
You said that using the term "victim" was an ad hominem attack. Whenever anyone says "unless you do this, I'll have to do this" they are playing victim. You don't have to do anything you choose not to do - you own that responsibility, and when anyone shirks it and imputes their power to others, it's a victim statement. There's no negative connotation here to the term, and no personal slight is intended.
You apparently see no need at the moment for self-examination, and to offer feedback in such a situation is silly on my part. I'll save it for situations where it might have some value. Hell, you can't even believe that I might be able to understand English, so there's not much hope in you thinking my comments might have relevance :).
See you around the playground, have a nice week,
PS
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Maverick
I thought all day about an apology to Alan for getting pissed at what I perceived as a smug, condescending, self-righteous, invalidation of my beliefs. I am ashamed that I lowered myself to a personal attack. At that point I lost any credibility I might have had. For this I am sorry. And AlanF, I do apologize. To you and Simon and the other members of this board as well. I should have walked away. There are some wise people on this board, and they have helped me to see where I was in the wrong. You have some friends here Alan. In the future, when I think someone is being a prick, I'll PM them and keep it off the board. Maverick
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StinkyPantz
Mav-
In the future, when I think someone is being a prick, I'll PM them and keep it off the board.
Nice apology
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bebu
What resurrects, the person or a perfect copy?
Perhaps we should ask Stephen Wright. He said that one morning he woke up and found that someone had broken into his home, stolen all his possessions and then replaced everything with exact replicas...
Well, this has been a very interesting thread to read, and thought-provoking. Thanks JH for the good question.
bebu
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AlanF
Phantom Stranger, you have a real problem understanding the written word, and also in understanding that your criticisms of me apply much more so to yourself. Let's go through your reply and see why:
: AlanF, I erred.
A condescending statement. Given the rest of your post, the implication is that you thought I was smart enough that you didn't have to explain anything to me, that I'd catch your drift and bow to your great intellect and perfect understanding of me and my motives, and you erred in thinking I was smart enough. I.e., you're telling me you think I'm stupid.
: Offering feedback where none is desired is inappropriate on my part.
An unwarranted conclusion. I never said or implied such a thing. In fact, I've twice now asked for specific feedback.
You make this wrong conclusion based on one and only one thing: I rejected the unspecific feedback you gave.
Unspecific feedback is usually worthless for several reasons. In this case you said, "Alan, you're being childish." I could have responded in a useless way and said, "I am not." That would obviously lead nowhere. Another possibility would have been for me to say to myself, "By George! He's right! I was being childish." Now, I could have said that for two reasons I can think of. I could simply have assumed that, even though I didn't understand the reason for your comment, you were right, and I could have left it at that, none the wiser. Obviously that's useless because it would have given me no information about what and why I ought to change something about my behavior. Or I could have assumed your comment was right, and sought reasons to back that assumption. But of course, any reasons I might have found probably wouldn't have been the ones you had in mind. Again pretty useless in understanding what you actually meant.
So instead of making assumptions, I asked you for specific feedback, since that could lead to discussion and to my understanding of what you were really trying to say. I'm the sort of person who, if you want me to change my behavior, you have to give me good, solid reasons, because if I didn't already think I was behaving properly, I wouldn't behave that way to begin with. And if you give me good, solid reasons to change something, mostly likely I'll change it. Mere unspecific statements of opinion don't cut it.
: You have stated that you want specifics to respond to, so you have shown that you want to debate my feedback, not accept it as possibly valuable.
Another unwarranted conclusion. How do you know that I wouldn't have accepted your arguments? Do you have such a complete understanding of me that you knew that before saying a word? How presumptuous of you! How arrogant that you -- who don't know me from a hole in the wall -- think you know me so well that you can predict my responses!
The fact that I have twice asked for specific feedback disproves your claim.
: I have no interest in debating you about how you could communicate better - partly because trying to be right on an Internet discussion board is a silly waste of time for all concerned.
It may be for you, but it certainly isn't for me. I've changed many a view because of debating on Internet discussion boards. It seems to me that your comment is more reflective of your own disinclination to change your opinions due to accepting others' arguments than to anyone else's reluctance.
: Communication is not what happens when we talk
Nonsense. I think this statement is diagnostic of your entire problem.
Humans normally communicate in a variety of ways, but on an impersonal Internet forum there is just one way -- talk. Talk and communication are identical because talk is the only medium of communication.
: - it's what happens when others "get" our intentions and our concepts.
This is a fuzzy and virtually meaningless statement. How do others "get" our intentions and concepts on a DB except by our words? If we fail to paint an accurate picture with our words of our intentions and concepts, then most people will naturally misunderstand us. Perhaps you're the type of person who is very good at "reading between the lines". However, in my experience, it's the rare person who truly is good at that; most merely think they are and are wrong most of the time. Many such people even use their supposed ability to "intuit" things to excuse themselves from logical thinking and communication. I think that our discussion here is a case in point: you think you can discern my motives, whereas you've shown that you're clueless about them. Your extreme reluctance to state your reasons for what are obviously your "intuitive" conclusions indicates that you know it.
: As such, it's pretty easy to see when we're communicating and when we're not.
True, but if you had simply done what I asked first time around -- given specific feedback instead of getting up on your high horse -- we'd already be communicating quite nicely.
: You have said that feedback without specifics is worthless.
And above I've explained why.
: I have had several instances where people have given me feedback about situations where I could have been more effective, without specifics, and I have looked at my actions and their results, and seen how I could have performed better - because I wanted to be as effective as possible with as many different kinds of people as possible.
That's all well and good, but it simply says that you were able to see their point once they stated that they saw a problem. In some cases, that happens with me, too. In our case, I explicitly stated that I didn't see a problem and therefore, if you wanted me to understand you, you needed to explain the problem.
: If I provide you with a laundry list, in the present atmosphere it would just be argument fodder - and as such a waste of our time.
No, it would have turned out quite the opposite. The "present atmosphere" exists precisely because you failed to give me the specifics needed to understand you.
: You said that using the term "victim" was an ad hominem attack. Whenever anyone says "unless you do this, I'll have to do this" they are playing victim.
Sometimes that's true, and sometimes not. It depends on the situation. You're mixing logical apples and oranges.
Suppose you put on a superman costume and you climb up on a high building and say, "Look at me! I'm going to fly!" I say, "PS, unless you can show me that you can fly, I'll have to consider your remarks those of a crazy person." Am I playing the victim? Of course not. I'm simply making a standard "if-then" statement: "if this, then that"; "if you claim you can fly, then you're a crazy person."
Now let's look at what I had said: "And unless you can explain yourself, I'll have to consider your remarks a personal attack, since they have no bearing on the topic of this thread." I.e., "if you can't provide logical reasons for your remarks, then I'll have to consider the remarks a personal attack." Now, is this a reasonable "if-then" statement? Of course it is, because calling someone "childish" without being able to give logical reasons for it is by anyone's definition a "personal attack". Do you not agree? So, by inviting you to give reasons for your statement, I invited you to disprove my tentative "if-then" statement. Nothing about this is "playing the victim", and so your above claim is without foundation.
: You don't have to do anything you choose not to do - you own that responsibility, and when anyone shirks it and imputes their power to others, it's a victim statement. There's no negative connotation here to the term, and no personal slight is intended.
Of course there is. Calling someone a self-made victim who is obviously not a victim is extremely derogatory. If I need to explain why, just say the word. But I would think that someone as intuitive as you would have no need of my explanation.
: You apparently see no need at the moment for self-examination,
Yet again imputing motives to me that I don't have.
: and to offer feedback in such a situation is silly on my part.
Which results in yet another wrong conclusion.
: I'll save it for situations where it might have some value. Hell, you can't even believe that I might be able to understand English, so there's not much hope in you thinking my comments might have relevance :).
You really are arrogant.
If you want to have an adult conversation, take to heart what I've told you in this post. But I won't discuss anything with childish, self-important people who think they're so much smarter than anyone else that they don't need to explain themselves. It seems to me that you're quite unused to the normal give and take of Internet discussion boards and need to learn a few things about how they operate.
AlanF
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AlanF
Maverick said:
: I thought all day about an apology to Alan for getting pissed at what I perceived as a smug, condescending, self-righteous, invalidation of my beliefs.
Do tell. My argument was simplicity itself: a copy can never be an original. If you perceive such an argument the way you describe, the problem lies entirely in your own lap.
: I am ashamed that I lowered myself to a personal attack.
So am I. Normally you post decent things.
: At that point I lost any credibility I might have had. For this I am sorry.
Given what you said after this, I seriously doubt that you're sorry for making a personal attack, but for damaging your credibility. Like, "I'm sorry I got caught."
: And AlanF, I do apologize.
To the extent that it's truly sincere, I accept.
: To you and Simon and the other members of this board as well. I should have walked away. There are some wise people on this board, and they have helped me to see where I was in the wrong. You have some friends here Alan.
I know that. And I value them.
: In the future, when I think someone is being a prick, I'll PM them and keep it off the board.
This is precisely the kind of insincere statement that makes "apologies" such as yours suspect. Do you understand why?
AlanF
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Phantom Stranger
Bye, AlanF.