1995 generation change

by Gorb 113 Replies latest jw friends

  • Fisherman
    Fisherman

    “1914 is completely, entirely, absolutely a "history book" date - no one alive can recount their own "1914 experiences".

    It is reasonable to conclude that the signs of the last days Jesus gave were for the benefit of individual Christians living in the last days but since most of those 1914 individuals that died of old age are of the anointed class, they got resurrected ( according to JW) right away so they are alive in heaven and see from there.But since the Sign of Jesus Return prophecy is about experiencing the last days on the planet earth it is reasonable to conclude it should all happen within a real individual’s lifetime—which is TD’s point about the Great Crowd.

  • luckynedpepper
    luckynedpepper
    Per current JW doctrine, we've been living in "the last days" for 107 years now. There's maybe a few hundred people on earth who were alive then, but no one would be able to recount clearly their own personal memories from 1914. 1914 is completely, entirely, absolutely a "history book" date - no one alive can recount their own "1914 experiences"

    Irrespective of what dates, JW started believing what- My family has been part of this organization for 140 years. As far as i am concerned- these are all "last days" and to the point, it should NOT last that long.

  • Fisherman
    Fisherman
    140 years. As far as i am concerned- these are all "last days" and to the point, it should NOT last that long.

    LOL, chewy chewy tootsie roll But even while analyst JW see there is a problem it doesn’t really affect their faith because they are convinced.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    TD I double posted the above reply because of posting delay.

    When JWs believed that Armageddon would come within the generation of 1914 then they took it for granted that some of those alive in 1935 when the “great crowd” were identified would still be alive at the end of the great tribulation. Such hubris also caused JWs to state in their literature that the new system would arrive before the twentieth century ended, and that there was no point going to college in 1969. When the Watchtower spoke as if the end would come in the 20th century, that there was no need to go to college in 1969, and as if people from 1935 would still be alive at the end of the great tribulation, they were stating what they believed to be common sense on the issue, not establishing a doctrinal position about 1969, the twentieth century, or a lifespan from 1935. They were wrong on all those counts and caused great disappointment to many, no doubt. When the literature spoke about believers from 1935 as future members of the “great crowd” that was an expression of their complete confidence about how near the new system was. As the decades have rolled on it seems clear now that assumption was wrong, however the fundamental definition of the “great crowd” remains unchanged. The great crowd is, and always has been, conceived to be the “other sheep” who live through the great tribulation. You are correct to point out that none of those alive in 1935 look like they are going to live through the great tribulation, because too much time has passed. But since the “great crowd” was always defined in relation to the “great tribulation” no major doctrine needs to change in order to accommodate the passage of time in this instance.

    When Rutherford dramatically pointed at those standing in attendance at the convention in 1935 and said they are the “great crowd” it was with the expectation that Armageddon would come very soon. He was wrong about that, as JWs have been wrong about many things. 1935 is the year when JWs got their new understanding on who the “great crowd” are—believers with the earthly hope who live through the great tribulation into the new system. That definition can remain the same long after everyone from 1935 is dead. So while past statements have proved wrong, there is no practical reason why JWs need to change their teaching in relation to the “great crowd” because their basic definition of “other sheep who live through the great tribulation” still works.

    Otherwise can you explain what they need to change and why?

  • Fisherman
    Fisherman

    This is how WT defines “the great crowd” in the publication Insight Book:

    The sum of the evidence, therefore, points to the “great crowd” as representing all those persons who are not of the heavenly “bride” class, or 144,000 sealed ones, but who stand approved at the time of the “great tribulation” and are preserved alive on earth.” —Insight on the Scriptures

  • waton
    waton
    the “great crowd” as representing all those persons who are not of the heavenly “bride” class, or 144,000 sealed ones, but who stand approved at the time of the “great tribulation” and are preserved alive on earth.” —Insight on the Scriptures

    Fisherman : as you know, verse 21 of that prophecy defines the greatest calamity ever to happen on this planet. verse 34 states then (in other words) that the generation in question passes away after everything is calm again. The whole generation, all of them, pass away.

    That is not "millions living will never die". wt is wrong, the generation never was the GC of OS. and

    that is not the anointed either, because they die before, not after the great tribulation and its culmination, Armageddon.

    even "the historically bad system of people" in the 1995 generation definition dont fit the bill, because they die before the end too, not after all has happened.

    Based on the latest understanding of how some parts of prophecy might not have a greater fulfillment, this could apply to 1914 generation fulfillment.

    fisherman, are you defending wt then, with this proviso?

    the dying, passing away of the generation does not apply? After all, the generation is defined by its beginning 1914, and it's end, death, disappearance, or rising of a new generation, is it not?

    Jesus words in verse 21 puts clear restraints on that. they all die after surviving armageddon.

    wt's second fulfilment has no connection to reality, except to prove how wrong they are.

    enJoy.

  • Acluetofindtheuser
    Acluetofindtheuser
    Incidentally some Christadelphians read “this generation will not pass away until all these things occur” as meaning “this race of people will not pass away until all these things occur” referring to the Jews as a people now restored to Israel.

    slimboyfat's comment above really got to me as a PIMO witness. The current generation teaching of the organization is bunk and makes no sense whats so ever. The Christadelphian view seems to correspond to another comment made by Jesus when he was on trial. When the high priest was trying to force Jesus' true identity the high priest convinced Jesus to say the following,"...From now on you will see the son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming on the clouds of heaven." Since Jesus has not come back yet I understand this comment to mean that the Jews will still be around as a nation to see his his future return. The generation meaning has to be a group of people and not a time period.

  • waton
    waton
    The generation meaning has to be a group of people and not a time period.

    Actftu: Jesus was answering an Italian's, a gentil's question, it is not just one group, like Jewish people, or OS, or anointed jws. and

    Every generation, regardless of composition, has a shelf life. time [ing] is common to all of them. .

  • Fisherman
    Fisherman

    Waton, WT definition of the great crowd I quoted is exactly what Slim replied to TD. Slim doesn’t argue whether or not wt doctrines are valid but only that wrong wt beliefs about the great crowd don’t invalidate their definition of the GC thereby needing a change as TD was suggesting.

    Regarding your interpretation of the Bible, there are many interpretations. We have to wait and see how everything plays out.

  • Acluetofindtheuser
    Acluetofindtheuser
    Jesus was answering an Italian's, a gentil's question

    I see no mention in any of the four gospels where Pilate the Italian gentile was told the statement by Jesus that he will come on the clouds of heaven in power on his return.

    Matthew 26:57-65 said that Jesus was only before Caiaphas the high priest, the chief priests and the entire Sanhedrin when he said, "Jesus said to him [Ciaphas]: "You yourself said it. But I say to you: From now on you will see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming on the clouds of of heaven."

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