1995 generation change

by Gorb 122 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Disillusioned JW

  Have you noticed that when the WT and the non-JW churches write (and talk) about the destruction of Jerusalem they do so in regards to the year 70 CE, but not also in regards to the year 135 (or 136) CE? I think they rarely (if ever) mention the latter one, since it would complicate their explanation of Matthew 24:1-35 and of its supposed fulfillment of the generation of Jews from Jesus' days that would see the destruction of Jerusalem. The fact is that the destruction in 135 CE was far more devastating for the Jews in Judea than the one in 70 CE, yet most Christians probably don't even know about the latter one. The tribulation of 135 (or 136) CE was a far greater tribulation than the one of 70 CE! It was after the end of the war in 135 CE that the Roman emperor named Judea as Palestine (namely "Syria Palestina", in honor of the Philistines, the historical arch enemies of the Jews) and banned Jews from entering Jerusalem (except for once a year).

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_Kokhba_revolt says the following.
  

  'In 132, the revolt led by Bar Kokhba quickly spread from central Judea across the country, cutting off the Roman garrison in Aelia Capitolina (Jerusalem).[12] ... Despite arrival of significant Roman reinforcements from Syria, Egypt, and Arabia, initial rebel victories over the Romans established an independent state over most parts of Judea Province for over three years, as Simon bar Kokhba took the title of Nasi ("head of state"). As well as leading the revolt, he was regarded by many Jews as the Messiah, who would restore their national independence.[13]

  ... The Bar Kokhba revolt resulted in the extensive depopulation of Judean communities, more so than during the First Jewish–Roman War of 70 CE.[15] ... The Jewish communities of Judea were devastated to an extent which some scholars describe as a genocide.[15][19] However, the Jewish population remained strong in other parts of Palestine, thriving in Galilee, Golan, Bet Shean Valley, and the eastern, southern, and western edges of Judea.[20] ... In an attempt to erase any memory of Judea or Ancient Israel, Emperor Hadrian wiped the name off the map and replaced it with Syria Palaestina.[23][24][25] However, there is only circumstantial evidence linking Hadrian with the name change and the precise date is not certain.[26] The common view is that the name change was intended to "sever the connection of the Jews to their historical homeland"; a few scholars dispute this.[27]

  The Bar Kokhba revolt greatly influenced the course of Jewish history and the philosophy of the Jewish religion. Despite easing the persecution of Jews following Hadrian's death in 138 CE, the Romans barred Jews from Jerusalem, except for attendance in Tisha B'Av. Jewish messianism was abstracted and spiritualized, and rabbinical political thought became deeply cautious and conservative. The Talmud, for instance, refers to Bar Kokhba as "Ben-Kusiba", a derogatory term used to indicate that he was a false Messiah. It was also among the key events to differentiate Christianity as a religion distinct from Judaism.[28] Although Jewish Christians regarded Jesus as the Messiah and did not support Bar Kokhba,[29] they were barred from Jerusalem along with the other Jews.[30]

  ...

  Modern historians view the Bar Kokhba Revolt as having decisive historic importance.[15] They note that, unlike the aftermath of the First Jewish–Roman War chronicled by Josephus, the Jewish population of Judea was devastated after the Bar Kokhba Revolt,[15] being killed, exiled, or sold into slavery, with so many captives auctioned at "Hadrian's Market" that the price of the Jews were as low as the price of a horse.[75] Jewish religious and political authority was suppressed far more brutally than before. The Jews suffered a serious blow in Jerusalem and its environs in Judea, but the Jewish communities thrived in the remaining regions of Palestine—e.g., Galilee, Bet Shean, Caesarea, Golan and along the edges of Judea.[20] Captives that were not sold as slaves were deported to Gaza, Egypt and elsewhere, greatly adding to the Jewish diaspora.[75] ...

  Judea would not be a center of Jewish religious, cultural, or political life again until the modern era, although Jews continued to sporadically populate it and important religious developments still took place there. ...'

  waton, your reference to verse 21 in support of your claim is a good point.
  
• 

  Disillusioned JW

  Whether or not most us can agree that the WT religion is a cult, I think that most of us can agree it is a SCAM. The WT scammed me, resulting in me getting baptized into the religion in my early teens and to devoting much of my life to it, and it resent it. I acknowledge I was scammed. Unfortunately and sadly I spread their false message while I was an active JW (due to the control they had over me during that time), especially while I was a ministerial servant and a regular pioneer.
  
• 

  nowwhat?

  As another poster noted I think 9/11 saved the watchtower. I remember many that had left or were on the fence came back. I would have left too by then if 9/11 didnt occur. So it definitely prolonged the wt. Lifespan!
• 

  TD

  It still blows me away that doctrines which were dependent on the pre-1995 understanding of a generation were never adjusted.

  For example, when the Great Crowd was identified in 1935, it was thought that the Great Tribulation had already started.

  When the Great Tribulation was relocated to an unspecified point in the future in 1970, the Great Crowd doctrine was salvaged by tying it to the pre-1995 understanding of a generation.

  In other words, since the Great Tribulation would occur within the lifetimes of those people, they had the prospect of surviving it and were therefore "prospective" members of the Great Crowd.

  The 1995 (and subsequent) changes yanked the rug out from under that patch, which leaves a gaping hole in their two-class salvific model.
  
• 

  Gorb

  What I hear is that under JW's, these doctrines are not longer talked about.

  No issue anymore, they do only small talk these days.

  G.
• 

  FFGhost

  1995 was pretty much the last gasp for a coherent set of doctrines. Not coincidentally, that was about 2 years after Fred Franz died and by then Henschel was well along the path of senility.

  There was no "oracle" thereafter. The next de facto boss after Henchel was Jaracz, whose primary concern seemed to be keeping the "sheep" in line rather than tying up the frayed, loosening knots of JW theology. And it's only gotten worse.

  For the past ~20 years, the WTS has been about virtually nothing beyond behavior control. Their latest books on Jeremiah & Ezekiel are not about prophecies and their meanings - it's all disconnected scriptural snippets culled from here and there that the WTS presents for the way they model preferred JW behavior: "look at how obedient Jeremiah was..,look at how zealous Ezekiel was....look at how meek and submissive they were...."

  At this point, doctrine is absolutely and literally of utterly no consequence. TD brings up many good points about the incoherence of their doctrine, and the loose ends they've never tied up. Doesn't matter anymore. What matters is obedience and submission. The appearance of being a "good" JW. Accepting the hierarchy and not questioning anything. Behavior control.

  Yes, the current generation teaching is laughably absurd. Yes, the "great crowd was identified in 1935" has massive "plot holes". They know it and don't care. What they do care about is, do you say you agree with it? If yes, great, you can stay in the "club". No? OK, fine, say goodbye to your family, friends, and the only life you've ever known.
• 

  TD

  I've posed the question on this forum several times:

  Prior to COVID-19, JW's were still knocking on people's doors, still offering Bible studies, still inviting people to their Memorial, etc.

  They did these things because they believe we're living in a time of judgement, and that Jehovah is fair and that he wants everyone to have a chance and that it is their job as proclaimers of God's kingdom to do so.

  Assuming that set of propositions are still true, (?) then the implications are IMO inescapable:

  Do Jehovah's Witnesses expect people to believe as they believe on their authority alone or do they expect people to believe as they believe because those beliefs can be scripturally demonstrated?

  Do Jehovah's Witnesses believe people are judged based on their receptivity to a tangled, incoherent doctrinal mess that they can't even explain themselves, or do they believe the "truth" of the Bible is obvious to any honest person?

  When the basic message presented at their Memorial observance starts to fall apart, then so does their most basic claim about themselves and who they are.
• 

  slimboyfat

  I don’t see there is a problem. The Governing Body have changed the teaching and dropped 1935 altogether. Now anointed and other sheep are chosen irrespective of the date. The identity of the “great crowd” is those with the earthly hope who are alive through the Great Tribulation, whenever it comes. There is nothing to say they need to have been alive in 1935 or any other date. So the current doctrinal setup makes sense.

  The most difficult thing to accept may be the new idea that anointed and other sheep are not gathered in distinct time periods, but that does appear to be the current teaching, and solves the problems mentioned.
• 

  Gorb

  @slimboyfat

  For me it was a personal experience that I never expected to go through.

  That time there was more change, the blood fractions, the involvement with elections, the sheep and goats, and the introduction of jw-media.org and the WW2 history departement.

  James Pallechia, Jolene Chu, J.R. Brown, to name some.

  Crazy times!

  G.
• 

  Anna Marina

  TD I joined in early 90s. Knew nothing of their past. Went through the Live Forever Book. Some teachings were compelling others bonkers. I questioned the bonkers bit big time. Sister studying with me started to agree with me, next 2 elders arrive on my study. I'm still asking my questions, they effectively lied to me but more in the way of being very clever by fudging things, appearing to answer questions but not doing so. They sought to gain my trust rather than reason with me.

  "Look if you find anything better, tell us and we will all come with you." That's what one of these elders said.

  I fell for their trick - I did not know any better.

  Almost 27 years later I said to this same elder "I am certain that the 3rd year of Jehoiakim's rulership is the 3rd year of Jehoiakim's rulership." Then he said "you are irrational."

  So you asked do they "believe people are judged based on their receptivity to a tangled, incoherent doctrinal mess that they can't even explain themselves" - I'd say yes. This elder flapped a magazine at me and told me he believed it was the truth cause the mags were translated into so many languages (not that one word was necessarily true).

  You said: "When the basic message presented at their Memorial observance starts to fall apart, then so does their most basic claim about themselves and who they are." I say - yes. They are neither Christians nor Jehovah's Witnesses.