Fables, Farces and Facts

by Farkel 82 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • ros
    ros

    jayhawk1 and pseudoxristos seem like they may not have actually read my and jst2laws posts. It seems they are still locked into 100% literal interpretation.

    How should we know the answers to these questions? Maybe in the heat of battle it seemed like a whole day--I don't know. You're asking question that can only be speculated. Do I believe the earth literally stopped for a day? --No. Do I think the writer of the account might have exaggerated. Maybe. Do I think it's critical to the message? No.

    Wasa and Farkel:

    I do understand where you are coming from. I don't discount your logic. On the other hand, its the same as for jayhawk1 and pseudoxristos: All I or anyone could do is speculate on these specific questions. There is no way to know another person's mind.

    The reasons for my faith cannot be answered in a short post. There are too many details.

    I hope it doesn't seem like a cop-out reply, but the best way I can summarize it briefly is that my independent study of the Bible leads me to see an underlying message, that some of it is inspired, or at least the story is inspired, because there are too many coincidences that culminate in the man Jesus, particularly in the last week of his life. And, for me, I cannot conceive that the universe came from nothing. I've heard the logical arguments on both sides of that question, and for me, it couldn't happen without a supreme intelligence. In the Bible, some of the things I am fascinated by, I discovered by my own observation. Things that are not readily evident without looking for it. I'll give you one example (one of many):

    Skeptics will say that the Gospels were probably written after the fact, designed to make it look like Jesus fulfilled prophecy. Then I have a question for them. But first, a little background of Israelite tradition:

    As you know the story of Moses coming down from the mountain with the two stone tablets, and upon finding the Israelites committing idolatry, he threw down the tablets and commanded the Levites to execute them. It says that 3000 were slain. (For this point, forget whether it was literally 3000, or whether this was a loving God, etc. It's the story here.) In Jesus' day, tradition held that this occasion was the first Pentecost.

    PENTECOST Thereafter, the celebration of Pentecost was to be observed 50 days after the first day of the week following Passover (i.e., the day after the Sabbath that followed Passover). See Ex..334:22; Lev.23:15-17; Deut.16:8-10

    That first day of the week following Passover was known as the celebration of "First Fruits". It was also known as the "Festival of Weeks" which began the counting of 50 days to Pentecost, another festival. (Incidentally, I happen to be in agreement with the Bible scholars who determine that Jesus was executed on Friday, the day before Passover began that evening after sundown, and followed through the day of Saturday (Sabbath) until sundown.

    NOW THE QUESTION: How is it that all four of the Gospel writers failed to observe this very important point in all of their accounts: That not only did Jesus die at the 9th hour when the first lamb was slaughtered in the temple by the high priest for the sins of Israel, but he was risen on the first day of the week following passover, i.e., the day of the festival of "first fruits"?

    This is what was required to make this happen: 1) Passover had to fall on the Sabbath that year so it would be "parts of three days" from the Sabbath to their Festival of First Fruits.
    (And btw, that is how the Israelites did count (a part of a day or a year counted as one)--we know from the way they counted the years of reigns of kings compared to the way the Babylonans counted. This point is covered in COJ's book Gentile Times Reconsidered.) 2) Jesus had to be executed on the day before Sabbath.

    50 days later, on Pentecost, it says that 3000 were converted. Acts 2:41
    The first Pentecost 3000 died, that last Pentecost 3000 saved. =============================

    Please realize I'm not trying to sway anyone, but you might at the very least find the coincidences interesting.

    ~Ros

  • Farkel
    Farkel

    ros,

    At least you are not rabid about about your faith and more importantly, you are honest enough to admit it is your faith. I have not a single problem with anyone's faith, including my own. I have a problem when people say their own faith is FACT. You've not done that. I salute you for your wisdom in speaking honestly.

    You said:

    : And, for me, I cannot conceive that the universe came from nothing.

    Me neither.

    : I've heard the logical arguments on both sides of that question, and for me, it couldn't happen without a supreme intelligence.

    Agreed. That's why I'm still a Deist. I think all the evidence one needs of a moving force, supreme being, or Creator is evident in the world around us: the beauty of the planets moving in such harmony, the beauty of the symbiosis on our own very little part of the cosmos, and in man's inherent nature to be decent to others without some religion to telling him to do so.

    If the counter-argument one might make is that man is so bent on evil, that man needs some religious person to tell him/her what to do, then one must ask: "We're ALL bent on evil, so you are too. What RIGHT do you therefore have to claim you aren't and we are, and you know something we don't, jerk?"

    This is a rather nice way to send some religious crusader to hell, folks. At least ros is not one of those, and that's why we're having a nice discussion.

    Farkel

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Doug:
    I agree with both Ros and your points, up to what you imply with this one:

    We're ALL bent on evil, so you are too.

    I agree with the comment, but I've never met a preacher yet who claimed that they were any less evil than those they were preaching to.

  • jst2laws
    jst2laws

    Hello LittleToe,

    I am reluctant to participate in a thread that could potentially be devastating to the faith of others but I have taken a chance on this one. Faith based on misinformation is of little use.

    Having said that...... I want to make a small point regarding:

    I agree with the comment, but I've never met a preacher yet who claimed that they were any less evil than those they were preaching to.

    While I agree that many Christian religions display a more Christian tolerance than Farkel's comment implies, Fundamentalists do not. Europe fortunately is not as permeated with fundamentalism as the United States (example, G. Bush). The Watchtower Society is not the only religious farce to promote itself as the only true faith, the children on God, God's chosen ones. They certainly do come across as saying, or implying, WE ARE MORE RIGHTEOUS THAN YOU.

    These are the type people who promoted the Bible as the inerrant word of God just a few centuries ago, and now they use it to browbeat everyone who does not get on their side, God's Side.

    This is just another example of what happens when one takes the Bible literally, which neither God or the original writers intended.

    Steve

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Steve:Thanks for the counter-clarification
    I don't doubt that there are some that feel and act that way. It's just not been my experience, that's all (and I have made it part of my quest to get a wide range of experience on that subject).

    Fundamentalist sects!! Gotta love 'em, huh?
    Wise advice to be circumspect, if involving oneself with any form of religion - "Let the reader use discernment"!!!

    This is just another example of what happens when one takes the Bible literally, which neither God or the original writers intended.

    Actually, I suspect some (ie. Paul) did expect to be taken literally
    Once more, I'd state that I'm more comfortable with considering the bible canon on a book by book basis (and sometimes smaller portions), rather than taking it as a single tome.

    Hope you guys are doing well.

  • ros
    ros

    Farkel:

    I'm quite delighted to know you do have a godly faith. :-)
    I can understand deism.

    What I believe (in fact derive even from scripture) is that people of all faiths, including decent atheists and agnostics, will not perish.

    ~Ros

  • setfreefinally
    setfreefinally

    Ros wrote:

    :What I believe (in fact derive even from scripture) is that people of all faiths, including decent atheists and agnostics, will not perish.

    I would be interested to know why you think that scripture shows atheists and agnostics will not perish? Isnt it a requirement/statement of scripture that one must believe in Jesus Christ in order to be saved?

    Thanks, SFF

  • ros
    ros

    SFF wrote:

    I would be interested to know why you think that scripture shows atheists and agnostics will not perish? Isnt it a requirement/statement of scripture that one must believe in Jesus Christ in order to be saved?

    Well then how do you account for the hundreds of millions of people all over the world before Jesus, as well as the vast vast vast majority of mankind since Jesus over most parts of the world who never heard of Jesus or the Bible. Are they lost just because they were not accidently born in a "Christian" culture? That would make no sense at all. So how do I derive an alternative from scripture? Well, there are many points and its difficult to be brief, but I'll try.

    First the scriptures do not say that God worked only through Israel. Examples:

    * Almost the entire known world lay between Mesapotamia/Babylonia/Assyria and Egypt when Isaiah was written. Read Isaiah 19:18-24.
    * Also Amos 9:7, which I'll quote here: "Are you not like the Ethiopians to me, O people of Israel? says the Lord. Did I not bring Israel up from the land of Egypt, and the Philistines from Caphtor and the Arameans from Kir?

    There are a number of scripture texts that refer to salvation for all men. Examples:

    John 12:32
    But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

    Romans 11:32
    For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

    And my favorite:

    1 Timothy 4:10
    (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.

    The Bible story does not say the dead in Christ will be the only ones to rise. It says they will rise first. (1Thes.4:16.)
    Revelation 20 speaks of two distinct resurrections. Those in Christ rise at the beginning of the thousand years, and the rest of the dead rise after the thousand years. Those of the "first resurrection" it in effect says are already judged for their commitment to Christ. The "rest of the dead" rise after the thousand years and are to be judged--not according to what they believed, but--according to their works/deeds/actions/what they did (depending on what translation you read). This agrees with the words of Jesus at Matt.16:27 and Rev.22:12.

    The way I read it, only the intentionally evil will be destroyed.
    If you believe that Christ's followers represent New Jerusalem and the "bride of Christ", then if you read Rev.21:1-5, it sounds like those of the first resurrection join those who survive the "rest-of-the-dead" resurrection, and all will share the same existence in the end.

    That's the way I get the metaphor.

    ~Ros

  • wasasister
    wasasister

    Ros:

    How reasonable and how closely your thoughts fit in with my own world-view. And...how sad that your beliefs are not held by many fundementalist Christians.

    For example, my boss is now reading "A Purpose Driven Life" by Rick Warren. I agreed to read the book because it "changed his life" (I'm always put-off by people whose lives can be changed by the reading of one book, but I digress). The author, a Southern Baptist minister, postulates two things in the very first chapter:

    1. God determines where, when, and to whom you are born. He has pre-determined your life and your purpose.

    2. There is no real purpose to life unless you accept Christ. No salvation, no true happiness, no reason to go on living.

    As I slammed the book shut (for the first time), I wondered: 'Well, if God had decided I was to be born a girl baby in Afghanistan in 1972, I'm pretty much screwed and God is a sick bastard.'

    I like your flavor of Christianity a whole lot better.

    As a Christian, Ros, are you offended - as I was - when someone who identifies him/herself with your beliefs using Christianity to spew forth narrow-minded, elitist propaganda? I know when I was a Witness, I really hated it when a fellow Witness was being an obvious prick and offending people.

    Again, you have my respect and admiration for the tolerant approach you take to these discussions.

    Wasa

  • setfreefinally
    setfreefinally

    Thank you very much Ros for your comments. I am going to have to think on what you said for a while to see if that is really what the bible teaches.

    As an afterthought though, didn't the old testament God Jehovah have the Israelite's destroy all kinds of what he considered pagan people who worshipped pagan Gods with no consideration many times for women, infants, and children, and even livestock?

    SFF

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