The absurdity of petitionary prayer

by logansrun 56 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • LittleToe

    Sorry, I should have been clearer. I wasn't talking about "charismatic" prayer sessions.
    The "spirit" isn't limited to them, ya know

    I find no advantage to drugged states. I suspect that the sub-conscious is engaged somehow, which may explain why dreams are often pointed to as communications.
    The question is, how do you trigger that state?

    If I knew that, I'd bottle it and give it to the masses (I wouldn't be so crass as to try to market it).

  • logansrun

    Gosh, I just wanted to say that I love you people.


  • Yerusalyim


    You've brought up one of my favorite topics to discuss. Here's how I view the situation (and forgive me if this has already been covered, I didn't read all the posts to this thread...I'm lazy).

    God is immutable, God can not change...or he isn't God...therefore...our prayers can't and don't change God's mind on anything. God already knows the outcome of an illness...injury...what have you.

    We pray for US...we benefit from prayer...but it doesn't change what God has set out to do in the slightest.

    By praying for someone to recover from an illness we reaffirm our dependence on God...and give proper credit to any healing that takes place...and we also learn to surrender our will to God's and accept that God is soveriegn. Live, death, recovery...etc are all in God's arena. That's how I look at it. When I pray...I'm changing ME not God.

  • amac

    LT -

    Is it about altered mind states? I suspect so, but not in the sense of losing all volition. It seems to be more about tuning.

    But what convinces you that you are tuning to God? Do you accept the possibility that God has nothing to do with it and you are simply tuning to yourself?

    I pray. But I do so on the chance that there is a God, and I do so realizing that if there isn't or if he's not listening, then it is simply a form of helpful meditation.

  • DannyBear

    amac's point is a good one. I see little difference in the behaviours of tranced Voo-Doo dancers vs. Pentecostal holy rollers. Perhaps the only distinguishing difference is their seeking a relationship with the benign Jesus/god the other with a contrasting darker side. Both equally releasing brain waves of artificial rapture.


  • LittleToe

    Again, I say, I'm not talking about charismatic (Pentecostal) prayer, with "slayings", speaking in tongues, etc.

    I don't believe I'm bi-polar. How do you mean "tuning into myself"?
    Besides, some of my prayers have had an answer in the form of a physical manifestation.

  • Francois

    This idea fits nicely with the idea of the interventionistic God, with the God that DOES INDEED change, change upon the petition of his child or children on this planet.

    There is a real problem in worshipping a Bronze Age God and expecting adult, mature, logical and consistent results. It is the very reason I have been calling for years for an analysis of our concept of Diety. It has not been God that has changed over the years, but our human concept of him. Well, leaving off JWs and a great number of other fundy sects. The Taoistic concept of God being the highest I can find.

    In the west, our concept of diety is just plain foolish, childish and the people who actually believe in such nonsense get exactly what they deserve.

    This is a great topic and I hope it goes on for many pages and I hope people responding to it give it the thought it deserves.

    Frank Tyrrell

  • LittleToe


    It has not been God that has changed over the years, but our human concept of him.

    Like you, I hope this thread continues. IMHO it's one of the better ones (for this genre of topic).

  • Vita Nuova
    Vita Nuova

    This question is a great example of why I am so attracted to this discussion forum. First, I must begin with the axiom of faith that God is infinite. Being thus, the Almighty Godhead very logically, though quite incomprehensibly, knows all that was and all that is and all that is to be as one complete moment of time. In fact, God's self-definition as "God" axiomatically implies that He is the Prime First, ungoverned by Time, and thus contains all within Himself. Needless to say, this untouchable omnicience makes it evident that God harnesses an efficiency of government that refutes the Watchtower Society's chronological excuse that God would "change his mind." So God does not experience Time but contains Time, furthermore being the only infinite thing Himself. Perhaps all this theological pedantry is unnecessary, except for the fact that all that I have just delineated is so often taken for granted, as that million-dollar word "axiom" connotes.

    Now based rather firmly on this article of faith, God then, of necessity, reflects on the beginning of history as He does upon the conclusion of history; He had planned man's creation in the same moment He had fulfilled man's redemption; and He presently views the beginning of a life as he views the fate of a life. It seems, therefore, that this understanding of God excludes all human choice or influence upon the events of one's own life. But this is not necessarily so. For in maintaining the sanctity of free will and choice, God foresees the choices that a man has already made and organizes His Providence to accomodate this liberty. Without contradiction, then, man may himself direct himself, establishing an account of himself with God even while God has already seen the destiny of that man.

    Therefore, should a man petition God to any effect, whether or not it is granted him, God has already "counted" that prayerful petition and has already considered the faith of that person in order to commit to a particular response altogether benevolent, wise, and just. For God perceives the circumstances of a man's account proficiently beside His own ultimate will and wisdom. What God's action actually manifests itself as owes itself to His unfathomable "deliberation" which takes into account these and any other factors which God deigns Himself to consider. Prayer, as the faithful maintain, is one factor of central importance which God enjoins us to in an active relationship with Him. And besides the point, prayer is recognized as a miraculous exercise of faith in the unseen--Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam.

    Vita Nuova

    BTW-- Check out my salutatory bio--I'd be honored to recieve feedback! -->

  • LittleToe

    You should write a "Systematic Theology"

    Succinctly put.

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