Introduction - Any Believers?

by Believer 240 Replies latest jw experiences

  • Anders Andersen
    Anders Andersen


    I agree with what you are saying, but strictly speaking you're wrong anyway

    Centuries before the Bible was written people were helped by their gods just as rebelfighter was helped by her god.

    And even now there are countries full of people who have no clue about the Bible but believe in all kinds of gods.

    So everyone can claim anything about any God...with or without Bible or religion. It just doesn't make sense.

  • Bonsai

    You're right Rebel, JW's and some ex JW's don't make much sense. I don't make sense to even myself half the time. My anger rises up when I think about this conditional god. If it exists and I ponder the possibility (as theists would have me do), I get extremely pissed off considering the horrible suffering, pain and death NOT CAUSED BY HUMANS around me. I guess I'm morally superior to "believers" which is why I can't believe such nonsense without going into righteous indignation mode.

    I find in interacting with many theists they blame the horrific things of this world on anything but god. I bring up flesh eating amoebas - you blame it on the state officials for not testing the water. Well, did they allow the amoeba to exist in the first place?! Did they design this ugly killer?! No, that would be the work of your designer my dear. He gets all the credit whether you accept it or not. Bodies of water, more often than not, flow into other bodies of water. A heavy rainfall might push stagnant water (by way of run off) into another bigger pond. Previously tested water might suddenly have amoebas crop up. Don't cop out and blame men here.

  • Lieu

    Wow ... y'all certainly do have a way of welcoming new arrivals. Glad this wasn't my introduction post after lurking and leaving the WT org.

    This really blows chunks for a "welcome".

  • rebelfighter


    And what caused those conditions to occur? Don't be so quick to jump to conclusion. Why is that stagnant water sitting there?

    It took 5 years after I was diagnosed with cancer before they discovered that the water I was drinking was filled with lead luckily I started having bottled spring water delivered to my home. We had totally discontinued using the water in my home.

  • MercyBrew

    Hi Believer, I was never and still not a JW. I am a Christian and I believe in God absolutely and I stand with you to uphold your faith. I have proved my faith and continue to prove. I hope you do yours too.

    As for those who do not believe, it is their choice based on faith as well even though they think it is objective. Nothing, absolutely nothing, precedes faith, not even logic.You engage in logic only because you BELIEVE it is the objective and rational way to reason. When a man looks at evidence and reaches a conclusion by the same, he reaches it only by faith in his reasoning process. How do you know if reasoning is valid for all situations? It is like the computer invented by man trying by its computations to determine if we exist. What ever computations it makes can never help it to arrive at us except we introduce our existence as a piece of data in its code. EVen if and when we create the ultimate AI machine, it will only be intelligent to the level of our coding and not more. So if our coding does not allow it to correctly perceive us, it might sense us (evidence) but wrongly compute what we are. So it ultimately cannot by all its effort and power in computation just become aware of us, we must make ourselves available to it.

    All the theories out there started out by and large by someone perceiving something and believing it means one or more thing. The person then pursues evidence to establish plausibility.

    I know, not by logic, but by faith, that God is. Our undoing about the rationality of his being may be expressed by one of Albert Einstein's quotes:

    What does a fish know about the water in which it swims all its life?

    We live, move and have our being inside God. If only those who believe he does not exist would just give him a chance and ask him to prove himself if truly he exists. He is ever willing and eager to but on his own terms not ours.

    I have found him and at peace. I pray all others will too.


  • cofty
    When a man looks at evidence and reaches a conclusion by the same, he reaches it only by faith in his reasoning process - MercyBrew

    No I follow evidence because it works time after time. It is a purely pragmatic approach to knowledge about the world.

    If only those who believe he does not exist would just give him a chance and ask him to prove himself if truly he exists.

    I was a born-again, saved, adopted son of god for 9 years. I really know what it's like to be absolutely convinced that god is real.

    You want to hide behind a veil of god's mystery. What I have a problem with is not the mystery it is the contradictory things you claim that you do understand about god.

  • DJS


    You must be Believers friend. He judged me and those like me to eternal destruction in his 2nd OP.

    He has judged billions of others to the same sentence. Apparently only him and those like him have true faith.

    He's getting exactly what he deserves. Your incessant whining is changing on one's opinion.

    If a Muslim came on this site and did the same thing, only with Allah and Islam being the true faith, you and the other theists would crucify him. The only reason you are standing up for Believer is that you share his beliefs.

  • Bonsai

    And what caused those conditions to occur? Don't be so quick to jump to conclusion. Why is that stagnant water sitting there?

    It took 5 years after I was diagnosed with cancer before they discovered that the water I was drinking was filled with lead luckily I started having bottled spring water delivered to my home. We had totally discontinued using the water in my home.

    Rebel, I'm sorry to hear about your troubles with lead poisoning and cancer. Some things result because people can be real mean, selfish and short-sited to others like you.

    I wouldn't wish cancer on anyone. Cancer is a horrible mutation of cells that go crazy and self destruct. If I were a god filled with love, mercy and compassion, I wouldn't allow cancer to exist in the first place. Unfortunately cancer, harmful bacteria and killer viruses do exist. They exist because the universe knows no mercy. They exist because they have self assembled and evolved over time.They play an integral role in starting and ending life forms like us.

    I wish you the best of luck in your recovery from cancer and hope you never get cancer again.

    Why does water stagnate? There are many reasons, but mostly because of the topography of the land. Why do hideous viruses and amoebas and bacterias exist? I think I know the answer you want to hear: Satan did it!

  • rebelfighter

    Bonsai and Cofty,

    The year I had cancer my friends nicknamed me the Butterfly because it was the year I woke up. No I was not a JW but I was on my own conclusion course with life itself. I was diagnosed on 6/1/2000. One of the worse and now probably one of the best days of my life. That day I stopped and told my mother, "well no one in our family has ever had cancer so you can't have it". Got very little support or help from her over the next 4 months. Next went home told my abusive husband "I have cancer" "thanks for telling me " was his response and he turned and walked away. Over the next 4 months my girlfriends, my 15 and 8 year old kids fought this battle. My church I was member of since 12 over 35 years never showed up, the pastor knew my husband was being abusive. The day I came home from the hospital after cancer surgery, sorry his words not mine my daughter ask "daddy wiLL you fix me lunch "tell your mother to get off her fat ass and fix it".

    Anyway, that was the day he put the perverbial last nail in his coffin. See this man had just returned to work because I MADE him return to work after sitting on his butt for 7 years while I paid the mortgage, private school tuition bills, nanny for the kids and yes a maid for the house (4,000 Sq ft) all he did was watch TV and play games. I "MADE" him return to work because I bought him a brand new car and before it had 20,000 miles on it I had to put a new engine it, why because the jack a $$ never put any oil in the car. Why not? I do not intend on taking care of anything you buy. Good get the hell out of here till you get a job.

    Well on 9/1/2000, I knew my final cancer treatment would be 10/1/2000, I sat his sorry butt down while the kids were at school and told him he had 30 days to finda place to live because on 10/1 he would no longer be welcomed here.

    I got a separation agreement from him he signed over all the equity in the house to me. Haha he never contributed any money toward it. Over the next year I got all my ducks in a row, sold the monster house with the killer mortgage, fired half my clients and bought a house on a lake, put my kids in public schools for the first time in their lives. No more $30,000 per kid for 9 months and then summer camp fees. I was on a vicious cycle of producing large sums of money to support a life style that was crashing in all around us and it took a diagnosis of cancer to tell me you cannot continue at this pace forever.

    Yes in one year I WOKE UP! It was no longer about the money, it was all about 1) my kids, 2) my health 3) being happy and enjoying life.

    I have been cancer free for 16 years this month.

    I do not care what any of you say but my loving and caring GOD has walked this path with me. I have put up with and been there through thick and thin for a wicked abusive Alz alcoholic mother, I even rescued that sorry butt estranged husband when he suffered a massive stroke 6 years after I kicked him out because he has no one because I have a heart.

    Life is not easy but you can make the best of each struggle and keep fighting each one as they come along just hope there is only one at a time it gets a little tough when they start compounding on top of one another. Just be patient and don't knock somebody upside the head when they are being a real jerk and you are trying to get a job done. OH, trust me there has been days I wished for the 2 by 4.

    Maybe you think that book was inspired by God or the words of God whatever, I do not!!

    My God is a loving and caring God and he may not have all the answers when I need them but he walks with me through this journey and gives me support. I am not good at adding links so just look up the poem Footprints in the Sand. It hangs on my bedroom wall I read it before I leave in the morning and when I return in the evening. It gives me strength. It is also in a song version absolutely beautiful.

  • OutsiderLookingIn
    Yes, Cofty, we're talking about the same passages. You see it as rape; I see it as a protection in wartime as the law of war is "to the victor go the spoils." Is it reasonable to conclude rape and sex slaves if God required a month before marrying the person? A month is a long time to hold off on rape. And not only that, after marrying the person couldn't get rid of them on a whim or even make a profit off of them. The next verse, Deuteronomy 21:14 reads: "It shall be, if you are not pleased with her, then you shall let her go wherever she wishes; but you shall certainly not sell her for money, you shall not mistreat her, because you have humbled her." This is decidedly not the concubine being used up by those men in Benjamin.

    As for the Midianite virgins, you have read that into those passages because it doesn't say they became sex slaves. Those women were given to Eleazar as a tribute to God (Numbers 31:40-41). So perhaps it means they would never get married like Jephthah's daughter (Judges 11:34-40). Furthermore, the high priest was holy to God--he couldn't marry non-Israelites or even widows or divorced women (Leviticus 21:10-15; Ezekiel 44:22). But all of a sudden God allows him to have 32 foreign sex slaves? Hmmm.

    God recognized the existence of slavery, but Israelites were not mandated to keep slaves. And again, it was more of a free market principle--people could sell themselves into slavery or service to pay debts (Leviticus 24:47-48; Deuteronomy 15:12-17). Crazy, I know. But it wasn't an entirely one-sided transaction like chattel slavery in the Americas.

    I know we don't agree nor is that my intention, but the fact is we all inject our bias onto the page. As a world, we've come a long way and I'm so very glad for that, but it's hard to judge a global culture of Attila the Huns when the biggest issue of the day is "what does Brexit mean for my freedom of travel?" This is why I initially told Believer that the OT is so far removed from modern life that we just don't get it nor do we have to. We learn what we can from it and move on. Mainly, the unifying theme of the Bible: love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and love your neighbor as yourself.

    Hi there, Mark of Cane. My point in saying that was actually something different, namely, that a belief in the supernatural is necessarily beyond the limits of human understanding. So for me to say that there are things I don't understand or that the supernatural exists is always beyond the realm of "reason."

    To address your points, though, I haven't shied away from the OT; it still is profitable for something. We can learn from what ancient Israel did and didn't do, from their missteps, the ease with which it's possible to slip into idol worship (not just statues but things that take the place of God). I think we can learn from anyone, even if it's just learning what not to do. But those conditions don't exist anymore; it is history, background. That was then, this is now. For instance, there are long, repeated descriptions of the system of animal sacrifice. We don't do that anymore. We don't need it, but the entire book of Hebrews wouldn't make sense without it. There are dietary restrictions that might still be the best for health reasons, but their main purpose was to set apart the Israelites from surrounding nations. The account of Peter going to Cornelius's house for dinner says kosher rules no longer apply (Acts 10). And boy, I am glad because I love bacon. And shrimp! God gave the law to create order and a standard. Then He gave us Jesus. As I said before, the law was a guide for how to live in a fallen world and they were infused with humanity for the times. People turned them into ways to oppress other people.

    I would agree that it's harder to defend a pick-and-choose faith. I used to do it but now I'm all in. And that doesn't mean that I'm happy when bad things happen or that I'm reverting to OT tactics when we're called to something else under Christ. I'm not, in JW style, looking forward to Armageddon because I know I've done some things and judgment will start at the house of God (1 Peter 4:17). We will all be called to account. It just means that the Old Testament is there and I don't ignore it.

    Lastly, a general comment about the concept of God's love being at odds with judgment. I don't understand. Part of righteousness is justice. The judge in California has been nearly run off the bench for giving a six-month sentence to the swimmer who raped a young woman on Stanford's campus. Yet we conclude that God is wrong or maniacal because He has His standard of justice. We may not agree with the standard, but it doesn't mean it is a contradiction in terms to be love and require justice. I believe in the goodness of God; I also believe He is a consuming fire. He is not to be played with. Says so even in the NT (Hebrews 12:29). That's where being omnipotent comes into play. Revelation 20 says the dead will be judged according to their works, good or evil. So as a Christian, I believe that we're still responsible for what we do (including how we treat people), but our salvation comes through Jesus and we can't earn that salvation; we just receive it.

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