Introduction - Any Believers?

by Believer 240 Replies latest jw experiences

  • Giles Gray
    Giles Gray
    OLI-Giles Gray, why is "I don't understand everything" the mark of enlightenment for exJWs and non-believers but irrefutable evidence that believers are irrational?

    Because believers only resort to 'not understand things' when they are stuck to explaining away the less edifying parts of the bible.

    Believers never call into question the parts of the bible that lend favour to their god's reputation.

    It's not so much a case of irrationality but more of bias and hypocrisy.

  • OutsiderLookingIn

    Cofty: We can go round and round on this merry-go-round but we won't get anywhere. I have written that God did not approve of kidnap/rape, yet here it is again. I have mentioned the pervasive culture of warfare and avenger mindset, but that's cultural relativism. I have said that after Christ, we are called to peace so that behavior would not be a reasonable course. Jesus was born during the so-called pax Romana, years of unprecedented relative peace and I think this was divinely orchestrated timing. But I already know, you don't care. You have reached your conclusion. You don't believe in the God of the Bible. You have communicated your point effectively. I get it.

    Giles Gray: Bias is present in every argument. There has been bias in what is gleaned from my responses. Yes, I'm biased for God; that's why I'm a believer. I've experienced the peace that passes all understanding and it wasn't chemically induced. I went from toeing the faith line to experiencing God in my life. So it's not hypocritical when part of my belief is that if I knew everything, I would in fact be God. Those statements went together: I'm not God and I don't know everything. You call it a cop out, but you also think that belief generally is a cop out so I can't win for losing. I believe in the supernatural so arguing beyond what we can see or scientifically explain will clearly exceed the limits of human understanding. There will always be a gap I won't be able to bridge.

    As an aside, faith isn't going anywhere. And if you think so, you might be as deluded as I'm sure you think I am. This is a very atheist-friendly space and yet there are still believers. This may be a topic for a new OP, but I actually think complete ridicule/non-exposure to religion plays right into the hand of the Watchtower because they can be there to pick up the pieces when life throws the inevitable curve ball. If not them, some other destructive cult. In reading Steve Hassan's book Combatting Mind Control, I was surprised that many weren't religious at all. Probably a backlash against religion that leads right into the hands of the next two-bit con.

  • cofty
    I have written that God did not approve of kidnap/rape, yet here it is again.

    Actually no you haven't written that up to now. God did approve of kidnap/rape.

    Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man... Divide the spoils equally between the soldiers who took part in the battle and the rest of the community... The plunder remaining from the spoils that the soldiers took was.. 32,000 women who had never slept with a man.

    When you go to war against your enemies and the Lord your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife.

    I don't know how many times I have to say something before you stop just ignoring it. Jesus commanded his soldiers to act like ISIS warlords. Kill all the men. Then murder all the women and male babies in cold blood but keep the virgins as sex slaves. Eleazar the High Priest got 32 virgins all to himself!

    Cultural relativism does help you at all. For the third time I am NOT criticising Israel I am talking about the instructions that originated with Jesus who you claim is eternally good.

  • cofty

    I know you said you didn't need references but perhaps you do.

    "you may acquire male and female slaves from the pagan nations that are around you. Then, too, it is out of the sons of the sojourners who live as aliens among you that you may gain acquisition, and out of their families who are with you, whom they will have produced in your land; they also may become your possession. You may even bequeath them to your sons after you, to receive as a possession; you can use them as permanent slaves."

    "if his master gives him a wife, and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall belong to her master, and he shall go out alone."

    "If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property."

    Jesus approves of taking slaves and keeping them and their children as permanent inheritable possessions.

  • Lieu

    I'm not Atheist ... (in answer to the OP's question) ... nor do I subscribe to the OT stuff since it doesn't apply to anyone anymore.

  • cofty
    nor do I subscribe to the OT stuff since it doesn't apply to anyone anymore.

    Jesus believed every word of it.

    If you are a christian you believe Jesus is god - therefore it was Jesus who commanded Joshua's army to commit infanticide, kidnap/rape and take slaves.

    You simply can't have one without the other or else you are inventing your own Jesus.

  • Lieu

    LOL Crofty!

    Er, everyone back then were or had been slaves. They could even sell themselves into slavery from the next verse or two. I would doubt most would treat their slaves like the Europeans treated African slaves since they (Israel) had been slaves themselves. It's not like they were allowed to forget that.

    (Europeans forgot the slavery days to the Greeks, Romans, and the slavery of Celts by Nordic tribes.)

    Besides the Israelites went to "prison" quite a bit as a nation.

  • Lieu

    Like I said Crofty, I don't subscribe to it as the Mosaic Law doesn't apply to Christians. It is finished. Also, you are mistaken about what I believe. To think every Christian believes Jesus Christ is God Almighty is your JW coming back. Squash that please.

  • sparky1

    Hey Cofty....................

  • DJS


    I avoid religious discussions like the plague they are. I only get involved when one of you theists make definitive, erroneous statements about atheists or you try to preach at us. Both of these occur a lot, but I ignore most of them.

    The level of immaturity associated with your responses to Cofty and others on this post, however, makes it difficult for me to avoid responding. Regardless of whether one believes in the trinity, your post orders (bible) makes numerous references that Jah and his little boy Jesus are in lock step agreement in every way and on every matter.

    For you to attempt to play the Old Testament/New Testament card in this matter in response to Cofty's illustration of what a monster your god is, is childish and wildly inaccurate.

    Also, let's for a second suggest that Jah of the OT and Jesus of the NT are in some manner different. Really? As I recall, the chip off the old block is going to destroy billions soon including men, women and children who have done him no wrong. And after that, he is going to do it again for all those missing the mark after the 1000 yr. reign.

    I suggest you grow up and face the stark, cold reality that Jesus and his dad are moral monsters, undeserving of our recognition as deities much less deserving of honor or praise. Or are you like Believer and you choose to bury your head in the sand and only think of rainbows and unicorns when it comes to your own very specific, delusional version of the almighty.

    The more you post the more immature your reasoning and rationale. But please continue because it is helping the fence sitters and the lurkers more clearly see that the gods of the bible are horrific monsters.

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