What changes are on the way?

by insearchoftruth 54 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

Vidqun

Pharaoh Necho’s campaign in northern Syria coincides with the brief reign of Jehoahaz, who was deposed on Necho’s return shortly after 1 Tishri (late Sept) 609, at which time Jehoiakim’s accession begins. First year of Jehoiakim, Tishri 608 (Sept–Oct) to Elul 607 (Aug–Sept). Third year of Jehoiakim, Tishri 606 (Sept–Oct) to last of Elul, 605 (Oct 6). This is the twenty-first year of Nabopolasar and the accession year of Nebuchadrezzar. Battle of Carchemish, late May to early June 605; Nabopolasar’s death Aug 15/16, 605. Nebuchadrezzar’s coronation Sept 7, 605. The accession year of Nebuchadrezzar = the third year of Jehoiakim. First (regnal) year of Nebuchadrezzar = the fourth year of Jehoiakim.
Jehoiakim reigned 11 years in Jerusalem (2 Kings 23:36). Dan. 1:1, 2 encompasses a period of 8 years. At the beginning of the eight years, in 605 BCE, Daniel and his companions would be deported (Dan. 1:1, 3). At the end of the eight years, in 597, Jehoiakim would be deposed, and some of the temple utensils taken (2 Chron. 36:5-7; Jer. 52:28; Dan. 1:2). Next followed Jehoiachin’s appointment, lasting only three months. Nebuchadrezzar, in his 8th year, would take 8000 into exile, including Jehoiachin. All remaining temple utensils would be taken (2 Kings 24:10-16; 2 Chron. 36:9, 10). This proves that the deportations do not have to be associated with the siege and capture of Jerusalem. Even after the fall of Jerusalem, during Nebuchadrezzar’s 18th year, the land was not left completely desolate. Jeremiah reports a final deportation in Nebuchadrezzar’s 23rd year (Jer. 52:27-30). See A. R. Green (1982). “The Chronology of the Last Days of Judah: Two Apparent Discrepancies.” Journal of Biblical Literature, 101, pp. 57–73.
Land was never desolate for seventy years. The slavery of the nations under the Babylonians would last seventy years (Jer. 25:11).
Fisherman

so it cannot be used as a starting point for the 70 years.
You miss the point: 586 is not supported by the Bible as the destruction of Jerusalem.
539 BCE does not work for at that time the Jews were still in Exile and the land remained desolate until reoccupied by the Jewish Exiles.
You conclude too much. I never said that 539 was the beginning of the 70 years or of the date of the destruction of Jerusalem. I simply showed that 586 is not supported by God’s word using the historical date 539 and God’s word 70 years. I also stated that I believe that 537 is the starting point. However, since WT reference Bible qualified 1914 with the word circa 1914 as the end of the Gentile Times, it seems that either 537, 1914 or the method used to extrapolate these dates is an estimate.
Where does it say that the Jews repatriated Israel in 537? Can you prove that the Cyrus decree was on 537? And if so, can you prove exactly how long after 537 it took the Jews to travel and arrive in Israel? Again 586 does not work because it is a historical fact that Babylon fell in 539 and God’s word says that the land was desolate 70 years to pay back its Sabbath’s. That’s it. But if you want to know why WT figures 537, that is another topic. My post attempts to invalidate 586 not show why wt teaches 607.
Fisherman

Land was never desolate for seventy years.
Bible says so and WT extrapolations are based on what the Bible says.
hoser

The whole 537/539/1914, Ezekiel’s, Daniels prophecy and the interpretation of the book of revelation are merely distractions that the organization uses to steal a tiny bit more of your limited resources to enrich themselves.
Vidqun

20 Furthermore, he carried off those remaining from the sword captive to Babylon, and they came to be servants to him and his sons until the royalty of Persia began to reign;
21 to fulfill Jehovah's word by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had paid off its sabbaths. All the days of lying desolated it kept sabbath, to fulfill seventy years. (2 Chr. 36:20, 21)
Jeremiah prophesied that “these nations [including the Judahites] will have to serve the king of Babylon for seventy years” (Jer. 25:11). The seventy years could be viewed as a full generation (cf. Jer. 27:7). Included in the seventy years is the desolation of the land, paying off its sabbaths (2 Chron. 36:21). The desolation did not last seventy years but fulfilled seventy years [until their seventy year servitude had been completed]. In Zechariah’s case, the cities had been denounced for seventy years, i.e., they had lost God’s protection (cf. Zech. 1:12).
According to Dan. 9:2 Jerusalem's devastation amounted to seventy years. Daniel would have known Jerusalem was not devastated for seventy years. The MT is corrupted in this instance. This was first century Jewish though on the matter. The concept, seventy years of desolation for Jerusalem, reflects later Rabbinic interpretation (see Dan. 9:2 Theo and Josephus). Devastations vs. reproach. In the OG we have ὀνειδισμός, meaning “reproach” (singular). See NETS. This is viewed as an error in the transmission: Jer. 25:9 καὶ εἰς ὀνειδισμόν and (I turn them) into a disgrace ולחרפות is read for MT and (I will turn them) into desolations. However, as seen, Dan. 9:2 is not drawn from Jer. 29:10, but Jer. 25:9-12. Here it could mean “reproach, disgrace, insult” (cf. Jer. 18:16; 19:8; Ezek. 5:13, 14). Specifically Jer. 25:9, and something to whistle at and places devastated to time indefinite.” LXX καὶ εἰς ὀνειδισμόν. See BHS footnote. KBLex, in accordance with the textcritical note suggests an emendation to (“as a disgrace”). See J. Lust, E. Eynikel & K. Hauspie (2003). A Greek-English Lexicon of the Septuagint: Revised Edition. Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft: Stuttgart. According to secular chronology, Jerusalem did not lie desolate for seventy years, but her reproach and humiliation could have started with Jehoiakim’s three year Babylonian servitude, completing Jeremiah’s seventy year cycle (2 Kings 24:1, 2; cf. Is. 25:9, 11). See also Dan. 9:16.
Fisherman

The desolation did not last seventy years but fulfilled seventy years
WT disagrees. 70 years applies to Jews and the land given to them by God. Land began to be desolate after the land was empty of Jews after the assassination of Gedaliah. Since the desolation ended when Jews returned, minus 70 from that date, simple: 537-70=607
Vidqun

Watchtower says a lot of things but cannot always back it up by Scripture. Feel free to share the specific scriptures they use to back their argument. Here's one they use, but there's a problem with it as you can see.
For this is what Jehovah has said, In accord with the fulfilling of seventy years at Babylon [for Babylon, CSB, ESV, CSBO, NABO] I shall turn my attention to YOU people, and I will establish toward YOU my good word in bringing YOU back to this place. (Jer. 29:10 NW)
scholar

Vidgun
Pharaoh Necho’s campaign in northern Syria coincides with the brief reign of Jehoahaz, who was deposed on Necho’s return shortly after 1 Tishri (late Sept) 609, at which time Jehoiakim’s accession begins. First year of Jehoiakim, Tishri 608 (Sept–Oct) to Elul 607 (Aug–Sept). Third year of Jehoiakim, Tishri 606 (Sept–Oct) to last of Elul, 605 (Oct 6). This is the twenty-first year of Nabopolasar and the accession year of Nebuchadrezzar. Battle of Carchemish, late May to early June 605; Nabopolasar’s death Aug 15/16, 605. Nebuchadrezzar’s coronation Sept 7, 605. The accession year of Nebuchadrezzar = the third year of Jehoiakim. First (regnal) year of Nebuchadrezzar = the fourth year of Jehoiakim.
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Your broad history in this paragraph is OK but the dates you give for those events are in error and do not match accurate Bible Chronology.
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Jehoiakim reigned 11 years in Jerusalem (2 Kings 23:36). Dan. 1:1, 2 encompasses a period of 8 years. At the beginning of the eight years, in 605 BCE, Daniel and his companions would be deported (Dan. 1:1, 3). At the end of the eight years, in 597, Jehoiakim would be deposed, and some of the temple utensils taken (2 Chron. 36:5-7; Jer. 52:28; Dan. 1:2). Next followed Jehoiachin’s appointment, lasting only three months. Nebuchadrezzar, in his 8th year, would take 8000 into exile, including Jehoiachin. All remaining temple utensils would be taken (2 Kings 24:10-16; 2 Chron. 36:9, 10). This proves that the deportations do not have to be associated with the siege and capture of Jerusalem. Even after the fall of Jerusalem, during Nebuchadrezzar’s 18th year, the land was not left completely desolate. Jeremiah reports final deportation in Nebuchadrezzar’s 23rd year (Jer. 52:27-30). See A. R. Green (1982). “The Chronology of the Last Days of Judah: Two Apparent Discrepancies.” Journal of Biblical Literature, 101, pp. 57–73.
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Again your outline of events is OK but your interpretation of those events is wrong. There were only two deportations by Nebuchadnezzer during the reigns of Jehoiakim and Zedekiah. The first one was an exile to Babylon of the royal family, temple treasures etc in Neb's 7/8th year and the second deportation or remaining population in Neb's 18/19th year with the destruction of the city, temple and land began the Exile to Babylon of 70 years duration.
I have Green'.s article that you cite and like many scholars tries to resolve the problems of chronology in dealing with the period of the last days of Judah.
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Land was never desolate for seventy years. The slavery of the nations under the Babylonians would last seventy years (Jer. 25:11).
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No. The Bible writers Jeremiah., Daniel, Ezra, Zechariah were quite emphatic that the exile was of 70 years and that Judah would be desolate for 70 years and Josephus confirms such a viewpoint of matters.
scholar JW

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scholar
Fisherman
You miss the point: 586 is not supported by the Bible as the destruction of Jerusalem.
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Agreed
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You conclude too much. I never said that 539 was the beginning of the 70 years or of the date of the destruction of Jerusalem. I simply showed that 586 is not supported by God’s word using the historical date 539 and God’s word 70 years. I also stated that I believe that 537 is the starting point. However, since WT reference Bible qualified 1914 with the word circa 1914 as the end of the Gentile Times, it seems that either 537, 1914 or the method used to extrapolate these dates is an estimate.
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OK. Do we agree that the 70 years did not end in 539 BCE? We both agree that 586 BE is not supported by God's Word with the destruction of Jerusalem. The dates 537BCE for the end of the 70 years and 1914 CE for the end of the Gentile Times are both based on God's Word.
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- Where does it say that the Jews repatriated Israel in 537? Can you prove that the Cyrus decree was on 537? And if so, can you prove exactly how long after 537 it took the Jews to travel and arrive in Israel? Again 586 does not work because it is a historical fact that Babylon fell in 539 and God’s word says that the land was desolate 70 years to pay back its Sabbath’s. That’s it. But if you want to know why WT figures 537, that is another topic. My post attempts to invalidate 586 not show why wt teaches 607.
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  Yes, we can prove that 537 BCE is the date for the Return of the Jewish Exiles thus ending the exile of 70 years. Remember, that chronology is based on methodology and interpretation thus these two principles facilitate any such 'proof'.
  scholar JW
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scholar

Vidqun
Jeremiah prophesied that “these nations [including the Judahites] will have to serve the king of Babylon for seventy years” (Jer. 25:11). The seventy years could be viewed as a full generation (cf. Jer. 27:7). Included in the seventy years is the desolation of the land, paying off its sabbaths (2 Chron. 36:21). The desolation did not last seventy years but fulfilled seventy years [until their seventy year servitude had been completed]. In Zechariah’s case, the cities had been denounced for seventy years, i.e., they had lost God’s protection (cf. Zech. 1:12).
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The 70 years was a definite historic period as the Exile and lasted for that exact period of time right to the very month and day as shown by the Chronicler..
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According to Dan. 9:2 Jerusalem's devastation amounted to seventy years. Daniel would have known Jerusalem was not devastated for seventy years. The MT is corrupted in this instance. This was first century Jewish though on the matter. The concept, seventy years of desolation for Jerusalem, reflects later Rabbinic interpretation (see Dan. 9:2 Theo and Josephus). Devastations vs. reproach. In the OG we have ὀνειδισμός, meaning “reproach” (singular). See NETS. This is viewed as an error in the transmission: Jer. 25:9 καὶ εἰς ὀνειδισμόν and (I turn them) into a disgrace ולחרפות is read for MT and (I will turn them) into desolations. However, as seen, Dan. 9:2 is not drawn from Jer. 29:10, but Jer. 25:9-12. Here it could mean “reproach, disgrace, insult” (cf. Jer. 18:16; 19:8; Ezek. 5:13, 14). Specifically Jer. 25:9, and something to whistle at and places devastated to time indefinite.” LXX καὶ εἰς ὀνειδισμόν. See BHS footnote. KBLex, in accordance with the textcritical note suggests an emendation to (“as a disgrace”). See J. Lust, E. Eynikel & K. Hauspie (2003). A Greek-English Lexicon of the Septuagint: Revised Edition. Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft: Stuttgart. According to secular chronology, Jerusalem did not lie desolate for seventy years, but her reproach and humiliation could have started with Jehoiakim’s three year Babylonian servitude, completing Jeremiah’s seventy year cycle (2 Kings 24:1, 2; cf. Is. 25:9, 11). See also Dan. 9:16.
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Daniel recognized that the 70 years was a definite period of time countable not just to the very year but to its month as shown by the expression "for fulfilling the devastations of Jerusalem, seventy years"-NWT, 1984.
According to the Bible not secular chronology, the land lay desolate for the precise period of 70 years along with the Jews being exiled in Babylon along with reproach and humiliation as an act of punishment by God.
scholar JW

What changes are on the way?

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