Christianity promotes a helpless victim mentality...

by logansrun 151 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Yerusalyim

  Logan's Run,

  Question, isn't the opposite of the victim mentality the unhealthy and unreal sense of self and self centeredness. I think so.

  You misunderstand christianity. Yes, we are helpless to fix the problem in which human kind finds itself EXCEPT to decide to trust the God who made us to restore us to the dignity with which he originally created us. This gives us a sense of acceptance and love that is unbounded. Are we worthless? By no means! God, who needs us for nothing and can't be enhanced by us loves us. We add nothing to God, but he loves us. So much so that he becomes one of us and dies for us to restore us to the original dignity possessed by human kind. I find this absolutely awesome personally.
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  onacruse

  borgfree, fwiw I didn't see anything at all offensive in your post.

  Part of what piques my interest in this subject is the psychology, anthropology and sociology of religion (religions of any kind).

  Psychological: Outside of divine revelation of the Biblical variety, it seems reasonable that religion was at first a psychological product of bewildered humans attempting to explain the fear-inspiring unexplainables in the world around them. rem used a term last week that struck me: the god-gap explanation.

  Anthropological: Eventually those belief structures were institutionalized as religions, and then those religions perpetuated that belief structure even when the original superstitions had been resolved (perhaps by physical science). The history and mythology of a culture soon becomes what defines that culture in terms that subsequent generations can grasp: "My great-great-grandpa said..." "the venerable Rabbi so-and-so said..."

  Sociological: Religious institutions become part of societal control mechanism, and resist change in the same way as political and legal systems do; they become engrained.

  If this evolution of religion makes sense, then it's possible that at a very subliminal level we are, in the course of "following" any religion, unwittingly enslaved to subtle psychological and social pressures that go beyond the superficial issues of doctrine; e.g. the "need" for a ransom (of any kind, for any reason).

  If I recall, it was Pascal (or Descartes?) that said something similar to what you conclude:

  you could be right and so could I, if you are right, I am no worse off, if I am right, you are in big trouble.

  There's a lot to be said for that philosophy! On one condition: "I am no worse off" only if life-and-death decisions aren't made on the basis of a religion, but on the basis of personal conviction in accord with the best available objective evidence.

  Craig
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  pamkw

  I agree also. In fact,I have been rethinking the whole ransom thing. The whole original sin thing seems hard to take for me. Who says humans are sinners? The whole Bible is about sin and I do not feel sinful. I live my life in a way that shows love and respect to others. I was going to a very fundy church, and I got tired of hearing how worthless I am without Jesus. I am happier now since I have started researching things on my own. I really like taking care of myself, and not letting my happiness be controlled by someone else.

  Pam
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  Yerusalyim

  Original sin isn't about personal guilt, it's more about sin nature, our propensity to sin. Not our fault, but something we can't fix on our own...
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  onacruse

  Yeru:

  sin nature, our propensity to sin.

  So you believe that we are by nature "sinners"? On what basis do you say that? A religious determination?

  Not our fault, but something we can't fix on our own...

  Again, on what basis do you say that?

  I ask this sincerely, as I continue to struggle with my own perspectives on Christianity. You can well imagine that it's not at all easy for a man like me to step back from my life-long conviction in "salvation through Jesus's ransom" and ask such questions.

  Craig
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  Satanus

  Logan and euph

  Amen!

  Yeru

  "it's more about sin nature, our propensity to sin. Not our fault, but something we can't fix on our own..."

  That is basically what logan identified and took issue with, only he called it a victim/helplessness mentality.

  SS
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  Brummie

  Christianity promotes a helpless victim mentality...

  Thing is, even without Christianity you will all be helpless victims of death. To try and blame such a mentality on "fundy" Christians is overlooking bare reality as if somehow helplessness wasnt applicable to you but only to them. My uncle has just been diagnosed with cancer, he is not Christian but he is an helpless victim. As strong as he makes out to be he will still be helpless in his circumstances. They cannot operate because he has lung problems, he faces what we will all face someday, death. Boast as much as we will but we will all be victim, Christian or not.

  Humanity is programmed with a victim mentality, "we live until we die" may sound like a victim mentality but its true none the less, I have hardly ever met anyone that doesnt ponder death at some stage...doesnt sound positive but when that is accepted we can still live happily. imo Christianity offers hope and survival rather than eternal death, doesnt sound like its promoting helplessness to me. For the Christian, Christs death meant victory not helplessness and it installs a positive outlook in live for millions.

  Brummie
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  KGB

  borgfree,

  I am with you brother, I was not angered by my post either. but some like ravyn only read between the lines and can only grasp certain parts then they run with it just like the JW's do with scripture. They take a couple of words and make a whole doctrine. I think that some of those who were in the borg still carry that same mentality after they leave, you know some people have to go get themselves deprogramed just to get themselves back on track.

  I am not a mean person nor a dummy but I will speak my mind I do the same to people around me, I do not pull punches when it comes to my mind. But some take it the wrong way and yes I too beleive that it is because you cannot discern someones attitude or personality from the internet. OH WELL what are they gonna do take away my birthday ?
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  logansrun

  Borgfree,

  I do not fell like I am a victim of two people who lived 6000 years ago, I think I am under a sentence of death because of those two people, but do not think of it as being a victim.

  Wow. How is one not to feel like a victim because of a sentence of death? Read this statement ten times and see just how silly it it.

  The rest of your post was also grounded on the supreme assumption that the Bible actually is without error, that Jesus actually was the son of God, etc. Sorry -- no Bible scholar worth his salt would agree with this. Unfortunately, not all of humanity learned from the great works of the Enlightenment. I think you have compeletely approached this issue from one side and one side only -- that of conservative Christianity. Really -- my God, man! -- there is so much you are missing.

  The "Ransom Sacrifice" is one of the most perverse, incoherant and twisted religious ideas humankind has ever thought of. I don't have the time to get into that now, though. It will have to wait. Oh, hell...I'll just say this: God supposedly sends his son to die as a blood offering to himself. HIMSELF!! The blood wasn't paid to Satan (which would have remotely made more sense) but was paid to the person who provided the money, so to speak! Oh, and what a sacrifice -- according to Christians God and Jesus both knew for a fact that JC would be ressurrected -- not much of a sacrifice if you ask me. The whole thing is so convoluted I've got to believe the councils that cannonized the Bible in the 4'th century must have been giggling.

  Yerusalyim,

  Let me get this straight, we have sin in our nature, right? Okay -- so where is it? The human genome is the blueprint for nearly everything about us from the color of our eyes to our sexual orientation. Have scientists ever found a gene(s) for "sin"? Nope.

  You're a Catholic, right? The Pope has officially endorsed evolution, right? All evolution is based on gene fluctuation -- additions, mutations, genetic transfer, etc. So -- where is sin? Are chimpanzees 99.5% sinners since we share that amount of genetic information with them? You see, your definition of human "nature" is based on pure mysticism which has no grounding in actual fact.

  To the others: thanks for the comments. I'll respond more on this thread tomorrow (if it is still alive). I'm going to bed now. Goodnight

  Bradley
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  Ravyn

  borg--ok. I live with whacked out fundies and it is easy to 'hear' the words written on here in their voices. They say the same things--maybe the tone of voice is different.

  KGB--you know I try to be nice to you. But most of the time I just find you rather insulting. I guess I will just not respond to you anymore. You seem very moody to me and I never know when you are going to go off. But when you are in a good mood--you can be a very pleasant guy. You misjudge me everytime I say something that you don't agree with and then you insult me by imputing wrong motives. I get tired of explaining myself to you. But one thing I can tell you--I am as far away from the JW mentality as anyone can get. You contradict yourself--literalists do not read between the lines----so I can't be like JWs AND read between the lines!

  Anyway, the only people who have ever hurt me in my life were Christian. And every time I try to give them another chance they blow it again. I don't have the time or the ambition left to keep trying. I am getting to the point where I consider Christianity the biggest plague ever to come upon mankind.

  Ravyn