need to "stay alive to xx75" to prove wt wrong? again?

by prologos 56 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • prologos

    btic, adding 2034, is ra dishonest forgery, diminishes the force of your arguments, it does not however, detract from the propositions up for discussions here, and I know of no original chart, or definitions by wt, that refutes them. which are:

    1) The "end of the world ideas" of wt doctrine are in great part defined by Math. 24 & 25.

    2). The wt "end of the world" scenario includes their "battle of Armageddon."

    3) wt equates the battle of Armageddon with "the flood", based on Jesus' words.

    4) jws preach a hope to survive, to not pass away, or die during 'all these things" in Math 24, 25.

    5) jw preach to recruit those that will be the first generation to never die at all .

    6) there is no mention in Math, 24,25 of the generation ending during any of it's phases.

    7) some members of Jesus' audience did not pass away until ~70 years after his talk.

    8) Jesus instructed members of his generation how to flee, to survive, to not pass away during all these things.

    let it be resolved therefore,

    That the wt "anointed generation of 1914" dying at the onset of the Great Tribulation can not possibly be the generation that Jesus was talking about.

  • prologos
    "--after 1992 - assumed moment of the anointment of the last member of "This Generation" btic:

    the red vertical line marking 1992, is the year of death of Frederik Franz. The shaded overlap area, shows a long contemporary period, overlapping can mean a rather short time though, like the time between Franz's baptism and 1914. Extending his ~80 years of anointed service past 1992 of a similar later anointed, would bring the climax , Armageddon to ~ 2075. David Splane mentioned that there could be older anointed overlapping, up to 107 years perhaps.

    This is the istina, the chart is the pravda. but

    my point is, the generation is not supposed to not end in the first place. Jesus predicted the survival of the same generation of people through all these things,

    The chart is about the

  • btlc

    Your original question was: "Looking at wt's charts, when does the anointed generation pass away?" Original chart in David Splane presentation doesn't said that exactly, so I just proposed an answer (not a dishonest forgery) - I assumed that we are looking the same original chart and my alterations is more than obvious - my mistake, I should emphasize them. If you think it needed, feel free to report.

  • prologos
    so I just proposed an answer (not a dishonest forgery) - I assumed that we are looking the same original chart,

    btic, fair enough, sorry I overreacted. I did not see the 3034 addition, nor the intersection a little bit into the Great Tribulation line, that was pointed out to me by sparky 1, that did not show in your reproduction. To really exploit the potential, it is not 2034, it is 2075 with 2 overlapping franzes, 2111 with the 17 year old lady. be patient jws.

    Your original question was: "Looking at wt's charts, when does the anointed generation pass away?" Original chart in David Splane presentation doesn't said that exactly

    btic: true, but it stops far short of Armageddon, at the far end of the Great tribulation, and the original question was: "Armageddon in Math. 24 [25]" my proposition is:

    The wt "anointed generation" passes away at the beginning of the Great Tribulation, long before Armageddon. Therefore it can not possibly be the generation that Jesus was talking about on the Mount of Olives.

  • prologos

    Sparky1 you said: "

    David Splanes chart specifically shows that some of the 'anointed' will pass through the 'great tribulation

    Sparky1: , respectfully NO! it does not!. not the shown chart, nor any recent wt illustrations show the anointed passing through the Great Tribulation. To the contrary, wt has emphasised, that the anointed would have to die and go to heaven as early as possible, ( to shorten the tiring waiting time for it's members), but mainly to have the resurrected anointed participate in the Great Tribulation /Armageddon warfare from heaven.
    The anointed generation is so short lived, because they are needed in heaven. A premature departure.

  • sparky1

    prologos...........Look closely at the chart. The bottom line on the chart indicating the overlapping anointed clearly intersects with the perpendicular line that demarcates the GREAT TRIBULATION. After it approaches and intersects the line, it continues through the line for a short distance. This is clearly observable at the letter A in TRIBULATION. Thus the illustration is showing that some of the anointed will be alive during some period of the great tribulation. This is their current teaching and can be verified in the GOD'S KINGDOM RULES book in Chapter 21 entitled GOD'S KINGDOM REMOVES IT'S ENEMIES. Paragraph 15 under the subheading GATHERING OF ANOINTED ONES states: "Instead, Jesus refers to an event that will take place during the coming great tribulation. Thus, apparently at some point after the start of Satan's all-out attack on God's people, anointed ones who still remain on earth will be gathered to heaven."

  • prologos


    thank you for picking up this thread, I can see on pages 224-25 a continuation of bottom line through the A into the david Splane area, almost into Armageddon. agreed. and then in

    par. 16: " how does this gathering relate -- relate to what will happen next, Armageddon? --In heaven, the 1444000 corulers with Christ will--wield the iron rod against all enemies of God's Kingdom.

    Par. 17: The war of Armageddon --is the finale of the Great tribulation . At that point {end of Armageddon}. Jesus will take on an added task--Executioner of all the people judged as "goats" Math. 25.

    Here is confirmed my key proposition.

    The anointed will have passed away, to heaven before "all these things", Armageddon, even the execution of the goats !! Math. 25, have occurred.

    If they have passed away, they can not be the generation that will not pass away. simple.

  • sparky1

    There is no such thing as the 'generation that will not pass away'. Matthew 24:34 states: "Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things happen." The key word in that statement is until. If I were to write it more plainly, I would say: 'After these thing occur, then this generation will pass away.' The Watchtower Society views these events in a particular chronological timeline. Their understanding is that the events of Matthew 24:7-31 occur and then verse 34 comes into play. Then after the fulfillment of the signs and the beginning of the great tribulation the anointed are 'raptured' and taken to heaven. After these events, ARMAGEDDON takes place as illustrated by Matthew 24:36-44. In order for your theological interpretation to be correct, verse 34 would need to come after verse 44 in the timeline. I am sorry to disagree with you, but as I said before in another post, it does no good to fight Watchtower error with our own contrived errors.

  • Listener

    Sparky1 is correct. Thank you Prologos for expressing your thoughts, I did some research as well and came up with the following.

    Their current interpretation of 'this generation' is so whacky that it would be better to focus on that rather than their timeline (GT, rest of Anointed dying and Armageddon).

    With their previous interpretation of 'this generation' they have said the following. Also, they hardly acknowledge that it was their own interpretation but coming from Jesus.

    W 51 7/1
    The length of time is indicated by him when he said, “Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.” (Matt. 24:34, NW) The actual meaning of these words is, beyond question, that which takes a “generation” in the ordinary sense, as at Mark 8:12 and Acts 13:36, or for those who are living at the given period
    W 61 4/15
    The foretold events having begun A.D. 1914, the generation of mankind that is still alive from that year is the generation meant by Jesus Christ
    W62 3/1
    The generation that sees the start of these foretold events, Jesus showed, would live to see the end.

    However, I do appreciate why you are coming up with your current thoughts. That is probably because in their past interpretation they made it clear that 'this generation' included those that would pass away at Armageddon but also those that would survive through Armageddon.

    There is a lengthy discussion through a QFR W 78 10/1 that includes this idea.

    Jesus said “this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.” Which generation is this, and how long is it?
    When Jesus’ apostles asked for a “sign” about his presence and the conclusion of the system of things, he gave his famous prophecy about coming wars, famines, earthquakes and the preaching of the good news of the Kingdom before the end. (Matt. 24, 25; Mark 13; Luke 21) He also said: “Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.”—Matt. 24:34.
    Based on the Bible and its fulfillment in history, Jehovah’s Witnesses have often pointed out that Christ’s prophecy was to have two applications: First, between 33 C.E. and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 C.E.; second, a larger fulfillment in this “time of the end” since 1914 C.E.
    However, some Bible commentators have failed to appreciate the dual aspect of this prophecy. So they have held that by the term “generation” Jesus meant a race or people, such as the Jewish people or the class of wicked humans existing through the centuries. They might even refer to 1 Peter 2:9, which, in the Authorized Version, speaks of the anointed Christian congregation as “a chosen generation.” However, Bible scholars now recognize that the Greek word in 1 Peter 2:9 should be rendered “race” and is different from the word rendered “generation” in Matthew 24:34.
    Jesus was not referring to a race of people over the centuries or just to Christians. He was first of all referring to his listeners and other Jews at that time. An indication of this is the fact that earlier that day, when condemning the Jewish religious leaders, Jesus spoke of their murdering the prophets and said: “All these things will come upon this generation.” (Matt. 23:36) These words came true on the contemporary generation when in 70 C.E. the Jews in Jerusalem faced its fiery destruction. (Luke 3:16, 17) That also marked the ‘conclusion of the Jewish system of things’ in the first fulfillment of Christ’s prophecy.
    This helps us to understand “generation” in Matthew 24:34. In common English usage today “generation” might be used for (1) all persons who were born and who live about the same time, or (2) the average span between the birth of parents and that of their children, usually 20 to 30 years. Which did Jesus mean? Obviously not the latter, for in its first application the “generation” ran from 33 C.E. until 70 C.E., or at least 37 years.
    Also, it is evident that by the word “generation” Jesus did not mean just the Jewish children born in 33 C.E. Luke relates that after being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom was coming, Jesus told his disciples: “[The Son of man] must undergo many sufferings and be rejected by this generation.” (Luke 17:20-25) That rejection certainly was not by newborn babies. Likewise, the way things worked out shows that the “generation” he spoke of in Matthew 24:34 included his listeners and others who could discern the fulfillment of his words from 33 C.E. onward until Jerusalem’s destruction.
    Thus, when it comes to the application in our time, the “generation” logically would not apply to babies born during World War I. It applies to Christ’s followers and others who were able to observe that war and the other things that have occurred in fulfillment of Jesus’ composite “sign.” Some of such persons “will by no means pass away until” all of what Christ prophesied occurs, including the end of the present wicked system.
    Jesus did not encourage his followers to try to calculate the exact length of this “generation.” (Ps. 90:10) Instead of trying to figure how many more years, at the maximum, there may be until the end, Christians should remember Jesus’ warning: “Keep on the watch . . . because at an hour that you do not think to be it, the Son of man is coming.”—Matt. 24:42-44.

    Now they have created a new problem. If 'this generation' means that the overlapping group of anointed will pass away during the GT but before Armageddon then the GT could last for decades (or even Centuries).

    I hadn't picked up on this point before until you brought this topic up Prologos. This in effect means that 'this generation' teaching has no bearing on when Armageddon is to take place, unless it can be determined how long the Great Tribulation will last.

    If we look at their discussion in the 2014 Watchtower headed with the title "Let your kingdom come - but when?" it now becomes obvious that they are only talking about 'this generation' indicating a time during the GT, not Armageddon itself.

    Under the sub heading of This Generation they say

    14-16. What is a third reason for believing that God’s Kingdom will “come” soon?
    14 There is yet a third reason for confidence. What has developed among God’s people points to the nearness of the end. For example, prior to the establishment of God’s Kingdom in heaven, a group of faithful anointed ones were actively serving God. When some of their expectations about what would happen in 1914 did not come about, what did they do? Most of them proved their integrity under trials and persecution and kept right on serving Jehovah. Over the years, most—if not all—of those anointed ones have faithfully completed their earthly course.
    15 In his detailed prophecy about the conclusion of this system of things, Jesus said: “This generation will by no means pass away until all these things happen.” (Read Matthew 24:33-35.) We understand that in mentioning “this generation,” Jesus was referring to two groups of anointed Christians. The first group was on hand in 1914, and they readily discerned the sign of Christ’s presence in that year. Those who made up this group were not merely alive in 1914, but they were spirit-anointed as sons of God in or before that year.—Rom. 8:14-17.
    16 The second group included in “this generation” are anointed contemporaries of the first group. They were not simply alive during the lifetime of those in the first group, but they were anointed with holy spirit during the time that those of the first group were still on earth. Thus, not every anointed person today is included in “this generation” of whom Jesus spoke. Today, those in this second group are themselves advancing in years. Yet, Jesus’ words at Matthew 24:34 give us confidence that at least some of this generation will by no means pass away” before seeing the start of the great tribulation. This should add to our conviction that little time remains before the King of God’s Kingdom acts to destroy the wicked and usher in a righteous new world.—2 Pet. 3:13.

  • prologos

    sparky1, The Mount of Olives talk covers answers to Questions about the first signs of trouble, to the end of the world. Jesus went beyond that, in the last words in 25; 46 : "--the righteous depart into eternal life. -- supposedly the earthly kingdom of the sheep.

    In the middle of his talk, verse 34, he mentioned that the generation will not pass away "until all these things occur" . all these things are not only the preceding signs, but include the totality of his answer. including the goat and sheep outcome, that wt has put appropriately at the end of the Armageddon event. ( in the chart on page 225 and p.17)

    The verse 34 "generation not passing away" is bracketed before and after by reference to the Noah's flood, showing the continuity of all the things from end of religion to paradise, that Jesus covered.

    The generation of sheep alive at the end of Armageddon, the destruction of the goats, would be the potential generation that never passes away.

    Your assertion that I am in error is not the subject matter here, but the fact that wt has their "anointed generation" peter out not later than the onset of Armageddon. In contrast, Jesus puts ""all things, including the flood-like Armageddon destruction, central to his answers, assuring us that even everlasting life for the righteous sheep is happening to the life of the generation that will not pass away. now

    Your highlighting the "until", does it mean the generation has to pass eventually?. yes,

    life will have to continue elsewhere in 5 billion years.

    the decision to making the generation "anointed" was short-sighted, that generation passes away too soon, before the crucial, central theme, Flood-like Armageddon event and paradise.

    ps: the "not passing away until", or passing away assuredly, could be explained away in comparing it to the "until the moon is no more" bible time slackness. the fact that the time is limited in the generation context is not followed that it should be limited in the cosmic sense. or?

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