need to "stay alive to xx75" to prove wt wrong? again?

by prologos 56 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • sparky1

    Prologos, I am trying to follow your line of reasoning. Can you please show me where the Watchtower error is staring us in the face. Thanks.

  • prologos

    sparky, look at the arrowhead of the top red generation line, where does it hit , and stop? at the beginning of the great tribulation ? right?

    other wt charts also show the anointed generation remnant called to heaven (raptured) near that point in time. In other words, the anointed generation has passed away, never entering the Great tribulation, much less Armageddon, which happens at the very end of this world. . now:

    What did Jesus say?--: the generation will not pass away, until the great tribulation, but particularly the deluge-like armageddon disaster strikes and finishes. (opening the way to paradise).

    After all, flesh is to be saved, for the survivors to live on.

    wt shortchanges the survivors, for it teaches that the generation will die before the trouble even starts. ( you can not go to heaven without dying, preferably by the axe; Rev, 20) . Thank for asking, will repeat details if needed.

  • sparky1

    Here is where I am confused. I DON'T read the Watchtower and AWAKE magazines or any book or booklets any more so you can correct me if I am wrong. The chart that David Splane used in his presentation is not the same as the chart that btlc posted. Is the chart that btlc posted located in print in a current Watchtower publication?

  • prologos

    sparky, yes it is, look at the details. wt has published several versions of the chart, one is on page 12 of the "Kingdom Rules!" book that was just studied weeks ago. sorry I am computer handicapped with my age, but here is a verbal proof:

    The anointed are participants as resurrected immortal warriors, conquerors with Christ in the battle of Armageddon, and the subsequent marriage of the lamb.

    This can only happen, if they leave the earthly scene early, die, and go to their reward in heaven well ahead of all the troubles here on Earth, as the red arrow points out. They have to pass away well before Armageddon.

    It is not the chart is wrong. it is right as far as the hypothetical "anointed generation" is concerned. but:

    Jesus specified ,so to speak, that the real generation would carry that arrow all the way past Armageddon, past the 1000 years into eternity.

    The last generation will not pass away.

    wt anointed will pass away, not later than the barrier of the great tribulation. thank you.

    wt drew the line of bible truth, right above.

  • Listener

    I'm not sure Prologos, you do keep mentioning this point but I can't see it myself.

    When the scripture states 'until all these things have occurred' could be referring to all the signs. Armageddon is not a sign.

  • prologos
    When the scripture states 'until all these things have occurred' could be referring to all the signs. Armageddon is not a sign. Listener:

    valid objection, thank you.

    When Jesus said, "--all these things--", would he have meant all the signs, or the complete, all events involved in the consumption of the system of things,? Jewish first and/or cosmic later?

    How about the unequalled disaster of Armageddon? unequalled before or after? how about the "taken and abandoned ones", how about the global flood analogy? how about the goats in gehenna? sheep into paradise? so:

    Please take into account that we are discussing wt dogma here, which equates "all these things" mentioned with the end of the world, the beginning of paradise for ever.

    The Math. 24 generation would not only outlive the different aspects of the preliminary signs, but the whole shebang. and then some. or?

    Bsw: if the anointed generation would only make it to the preliminary sign, are you not really shortchanging them?

  • sparky1

    Prologos.........As you may realize, I have no love for the Watchtower organization. But it looks to me as if you are creating a scenario that does not exist. David Splanes chart specifically shows that some of the 'anointed' will pass through the 'great tribulation'. Look at the bottom line. As it is drawn, you can see that it intersects the perpendicular line indicating the 'great tribulation' and proceeds beyond it a very tiny bit. This would fit in perfectly with Watchtower theology in that some of the 'anointed' do pass through the great tribulation and are then 'raptured' soon after.

    Matthew 24:7-14 - The basic signs of the 'time of the end'.

    Matthew 24:15-22 - The disgusting thing causing desolation and the great tribulation.

    Matthew 24: 23-30 - False Christ's and celestial signs.

    Matthew 24:31 - Rapture of the 'anointed'.

    Matthew 24:34 - Proclamation that 'this generation will not pass away until these thing occur'.(The former things spoken about)

    Matthew 24: 36-44- The final judgment (Armageddon if you will)

    That is the 'timeline' and there is no indication in scripture that Jesus specified that the 'real generation' is carried all the way past Armageddon, past 1000 years into eternity. I admire your tenacity in searching for Watchtower doctrinal errors and trying to expose their theological foolishness, but we cannot refute error with error. If I am missing something or misunderstand your posts please provide me with more solid evidence.

  • prologos
    As it is drawn, you can see that it intersects the perpendicular line indicating the 'great tribulation' and proceeds beyond it a very tiny bit. sparky 1:

    granted that wt dogma would allow an overlap of the anointed in to the yet undefined " Great Tribulation," which could be comprised of human rather than divine action, the lead question in the OP though, was not about the GT, but "Armageddon in Math.24". even 25. The whole olivet discourse).

    wt has again and again cited Math 24 details as synonymous with Armageddon conditions.

    The "real generation" ( as opposed to the anointed one), must be made up of the Sheep going into eternal life, into the new world prepared for them, right ? being the flesh that is to be saved. Unlike the bodys of the anointed, that according to wt, will be disposed off by angels, like Jesus'. so:

    Jesus was speaking of a surviving generation, not one passing away at any point before, during or after the Great Tribulation or it's climax, Armageddon.

    Limiting the "all things" to the preliminary signs, rather the total context, is a clever escape tactic, but is not in accord with wt teachings.

    Am I in error? I like to see refutation of my proposition details. and thank you for your eloquent reply.

    to add: I am not saying that there is no theoretical entity like the "anointed generation" possible in the wt scheme of things. but nowhere in the mount of olive discourse is there a hint that the generation that will not pass away,-- does. what passed away was the remains of the old worship, the priesthood, and if wt discovers, that that will happen in the final fulfillment, then the anointed generation would be the equivalent of the terminated temple arrangements, and the way it happened, --not a pleasant way to be proven right.

  • btlc

    Sorry if I made a confusion here (my bad) I altered chart from David Splane presentation to fit what we are talk about. Original chart is posted above, with David Splane, I simply added nubmer 2034 and extended arrow till "great tribulation". I meant it is obvious, sorry again!

  • btlc

    I would add, (if I understood correctly) that "This Generation" (on the original chart, forget mine) shows moments of their anointment, not their life span, and hatched area shows overlapping period of their anointment, not their life span, and right arrow shows the time soon after 1992 - assumed moment of the anointment of the last member of "This Generation" (that's why my chart is wrong). Those who are anointed after that period are not members of "This Generation".

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