Anyone recall someone disfellowshipped for gluttony???

by James Mixon 61 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • jp1692

    eewx2: This used to bother me as I am a glutton. I used to feel incredibly bad about my sin.

    Your honesty is admirable.

    If your relationship with food and eating is causing you health issues, then you should seek appropriate medical help, perhaps including counseling.

    But you need to know that this is not a "sin." Please realize that sin an antiquated and false notion that is probably actually contributing to your difficulties, both physically and emotionally.

    Congratulations to your husband (assuming he is now at a healthy weight and has healthy lifestyle habits).

  • _Morpheus

    I dont want to devolve this conversation too far off its intended path but the bmi is a joke and a false guide. Consider, this man is morbidly obese, at least according to the bmi

    The bmi is a simple minded chart that assumes everyone is built the same. Its long been discredited as anything other than a relic of a bygone era of cookie cutter doctoring.

    A simple body fat measurement using a cheap electrical resistance formula is far more accurate or properly done a measurment with caliper and tape measure is awesome as well.

    The man above, while obesse by the bmi, is actually less than 2% body fat and obviously very fit.

  • jp1692

    BMI is just one consideration of many. I would have thought that obvious.

    Percentage of body fat should be part of the overall evaluation, particularly when determining whether or not someone is obese.

    The good old Archimedes dunk is still the best way to accurately determine density:

    Density = Mass / Volume

    I'm sure you realize only a small percentage of the population are extreme athletes with such low body fat composition, which--by the way--has its own unique set of health concerns.

  • _Morpheus

    “BMI is just one consideration of many. I would have thought that obvious.”

    why would you think thats obvious? I believe you have referred 3 times to bmi as the measure of obesity and never once used or referred to any other standard.

    I object very much to people being measured by a fairly random chart with no comon sense or intelligence applied to the individual.

    And yes measuring displacment by submerging the person in water is a very accurate method of measuring body fat... so is a DXA scan. Neither is possible in your own home. Therefore i mentioned two other easily obtained methods that are far more reliable and telling than the rediculious bmi chart... or wasnt that obvious?

    And yes 2% body fat on a man or 10% and under on a woman is difficult and not particularly healthy to maintain for long periods. That has nothing to do with showing the flaw in the bmi chart. It only makes the point more clear as Arnold weighed 260 plus when not cut for competition and was certainly not obese at 10% body fat.

    If i may ask, why does this topic seem to be such a trigger for you and what is your fascination with the bmi chart..?

  • jp1692

    It's not a trigger for me. BMI is a useful tool for the majority of people, which is why many health professionals use it in an initial assessment in reference to body weight. (Note that I provided links where anyone interested could have read more about obesity, its meaning, causes, health consequences and various treatments).

    Hammers are great for pounding nails. Not so much for driving or removing screws. No one tool is useful for everything.

    I suppose I could have/should have mentioned the usefulness and limitations of BMI in my initial post but didn't think it necessary. Even the average person can visually tell the difference between a muscular person and one that is not.

    I could ask you the same thing Morpheus. Why does this seem to be such a trigger for you? Your exceptions and counterexamples are certainly valid, but they only apply to a small minority of the general population and an even tinier fraction of JWs. How many active JWs do you know of that are elite, high performance athletes? Probably not many.

  • _Morpheus

    I would respectfully disagree that my examples apply to a small minority. The bmi essentially describes and expects every human in terms of a marathon runner. Very very lean with minimal muscle mass.

    This isnt ‘typical’ accross human devleopment nor desirable anymore more so than my other end of the spectrum example of a champion body builder.

    I reject any description of humans writ large that dosent allow for individual variation. When we describe relative health a simple body fat percentage (which considers muscle weight) is far more reasonable and useful.

    As for me being triggered... lol i wasnt aware that i had been and cannot find any reason to believe i was. My pointing out the unreasonableness and flaws of the ancient bmi as a measure of anything other than outdated science seems to have been an issue for some on this thread so i expanded on my perspective and reasons for believing as i do. Also my statment that a cult had no busines organizing community shunning over gluttony also seemed to bother some (you specifically) so we have come full circle on this... the gb and the organization of jw’s as a whole dosent touch the subject being overweight and, as an aside, i dont like the bmi as indication of relative health. I hope this clears up any misconceptions but i get the feeling it will only lead to more passive aggressive bickering over something we essentially agree on, minus the bmi chart. Unless there is some specific point i can contribute to this topic i will respectfully take my leave :)

  • Diogenesister

    I don't how historically accurate it was but I have read that wealthy Romans, during New Testament times, would hold days long banquets where they would routinely make themselves sick in order to cram more food inside.

    Perhaps this is why gluttony was such an issue for 1st century Christians, especially given that poor people routinely went hungry.

  • Diogenesister
    • Approximately 4 out of 5 citizens in Samoa, Tonga and Kiribati are obese or overweight, US is 37th on the list....An obese person in my mind one who can not get out of bed, unable to walk, 400-500 pounds...
    • There's a good physiological reason for that. Polynesian's need to exercise around 3 times more than Europeans to loose the same amount of weight.
    • Another reason why weight is not a barometer of how much food you eat/gluttony.
  • jwfacts

    Disfellowshipping for gluttony has the same issues as disfellowshipping for drunkenness. When is it gluttony? When is it drunkenness?

    Despite the difficulty in establishing a specific point, there are extreme cases that are beyond question. JWs are disfellowshipped for drunkenness, so there is no legitimate reason why JWs are not disfellowshipped for gluttony. It is a hypocritical double standard.

    That said, Watchtower's practice of disfellowshipping is evil, and I am not advocating gluttons, alcoholics, or anyone for that matter should be disfellowshipped and shunned, but simply that this is yet another area that shows Watchtower's duplicity.

  • eewx2
    jp1692 Thank you for your kind words. I have sought medical help but my doctor is not very good with his advice. He just tells me to go on a diet, need a new doctor for sure. I do go to counseling but we spend so much time just dealing with my bipolar crises that getting to my eating issues never seems to happen.

    Yes my husband is at a healthy weight, and goes to the gym, bikes, does yoga, and eats right. Too bad I can't seem to follow his example. Thanks again.

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