Do you still believe in God?

by FormerlySandL 162 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • rebel8

    No, OP, I don't. It took a long time to admit it to myself. I tried so hard to believe.

    The problem of suffering while god is omnibenevolent, omniscient and omnipotent cannot be answered logically.

    So then, I pondered if god does exist but isn't all 3 of the above. Again, I tried hard to look for him, her, them. But they just aren't there.

    I can't find even a single shred of evidence there is anything supernatural at all. Cameras and other technology has improved, yet we have no pictures of demons, ghosts, etc.

    To believe in god(s) after learning the facts about the natural world takes a lot of mental acrobatics.

  • cofty
    There's a reason for our Heavenly Father's inaction too - Acts

    There is no possible reason for god creating a world that kills millions of its inhabitants through earthquakes, volcanoes and tsunamis and then passively watching the carnage unfold.

    If a man lays landmines around a village and watches children walk across the minefield he is guilty not only of a crime of omission for failing to call a warning but of a deliberate crime of commission.

    Jesus claimed to have been sent to reveal the nature of his god and father. Not only does christianity claim that god is love, it defines the meaning of love, and explains the importance of love expressed as positive action in the interests of others.

    I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous... Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. - Matt.5

    Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? Matt.6

    But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. - Luke 6

    Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God. Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows. - Luke 12

    Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. - Jas.1

    "Love ... always protects" - 1 Cor.13

    The god of Jesus is also a god who is active in the world. Millions of christians demonstrate their belief in an immanent god every day. When they thank god for their food or pray for protection for a loved one or for a new job or help with any one of a million concerns they confirm that they worship a god who acts in the real world.

    Natural disasters are incompatible with other things that christians claim to know about god. All attempts to explain god's actions result in a story that is internally contradictory. The god of christian theism does not exist.

  • Acts5v29
    I wonder if you're just too afraid that it could be true, and find the strength in hating easier to live with.
  • cofty
    I wonder if you're just too afraid that it could be true - Acts

    I wonder if you are afraid that you might be wrong.

    I was a christian for 9 years after I left the cult. It took a lot of courage to follow the evidence. Believing in a sky-daddy who will one day fix all our problems and reward the faithful is very comforting.

    I don't "hate" god - that is a dumb thing to say.

    I just posted a very carefully reasoned argument against your assertions. You ignored it completely and made an ad hominem attack. Why?

  • Alive!

    Hi Liberator,

    Sorry, am scrolling through my iPhone - could you post link to quotation site?

    A brief expression from a noble mind can be uplifting, stirring and sometimes challenging and thought provoking....

    A glass of fresh water :-)

  • Acts5v29

    not ad hominem - more encouraging by raising what might be helpful...

    Thus far, the response to my earlier explanation has been heated to say the least - not reasoning, but very angry. Is there no-one who sees the merit in it, or who can discard it on a more reasonable ground than the distant "I don't believe it".

    Honestly, like all other ex-watchtower I understand the horrors of realising that we've been hoodwinked and the feelings that induces - and I can imagine how easy it is to simply discard God to put an end to any chance of touching belief again. But that attitude - and I mean attitude - loses us so much. In a real sense, the watchtower is making people believe even after they've left: they're making them believe that God and the watchtower are somehow genuinely linked, so that they must reject both. They're making people believe in no God ever again. Didn't we leave to be free of that influence? why should we have to disbelieve, just because we leave them?

    God is not cruel, and is inactive for the reason I stated - its hard on us, but really is of our own making as I explained. If we can understand that - and it is very easy to understand - we will be able to take a great deal without undue suffering, and it will help remove that painful attitude which keeps us blinded.

  • cofty
    God is not cruel, and is inactive for the reason I stated - Acts

    You have completely missed the point. It is as if you don't read a single word that anybody writes who disagrees with you.

    The world was created in such a way that it would kill millions of its inhabitants through natural disasters. Why?

    You contradict yourself every time you refer to the bible. The god of the bible constantly acts in the world.

    Look at the texts I quoted in my post and reconcile them with your answer.

    Why does god promise to actively care for the welfare of humans and then passively observe a quarter of a million get wiped out by a tsunami?

    You are obfuscating. How about actually addressing the question you were asked?

  • cofty


    1. Your entire theology is predicated on a god who has good reason not to act in the world.
    2. You rely on the bible for your authority.
    3. The bible describes a god who constantly acts in the world and who promised to do so.

    You repeatedly recommend your "ministry" to others on the forum. Don't you think you should explain how these three facts can be logically reconciled?

  • Coded Logic
    Coded Logic

    I have two basic rules when engaging people online:

    1.) Don't take what they say personally

    2.) Don't make it personal - attack their arguments not their character

    But I have to say Acts5v29, you really are testing my patience on both fronts. Some of the things you have stated on this thread - and throughout this forum - are so disgusting and so vile and so morally bankrupt I can't help but worry about the horrible actions you could justify under such perverse reasoning.

    Simply put, sincerity is not enough. In order to put our good intentions to positive use we actually have to understand how our actions will manifest themselves. And if you're going to dismiss all the evil in the world as non-consequential simply because "God will fix it in the end" then I'm not sure you're in a position to say ANYTHING meaningful about ethics. You have divorced yourself from all moral responsibility and accountability.

    If I say I'm going to buy you a new car in ten years time does it mean I have the right to wreck the car you have right now? Would buying you a new car in ten years make up for all the time you were without a car? Or if you and your partner can have more kids in the future does it mean I can kill the kids you have right now?

    Of course not. Because restitution isn't a moral system.

    What if the child were determined to hate his father who sent him for chemo? Even a child could understand that, in the longer term, there was a good reason.

    If a child is going to receive chemo treatments then we let the child know in advance. We let the child know exactly WHAT to expect and we make sure they understand WHY it's happening - that it's done to save their life. We don't just start them on chemo without warning and provide no help with their symptoms and then when they ask, "Why is this happening?" remain silent. That would be unnecessarily cruel and harmful.

    But this is the exact position we find ourselves in with regards to natural disasters. We can't anticipate them. We don't know when or where they're going to happen. We don't know why they're happening (outside of causal events). And THEY DON'T SAVE LIVES!

    They cause death and destruction and imense pain and suffering. It's nothing like chemo. And it's deeply troubling that you would think that chemo and natural disasters are comparable. I'm afraid superstition has vandalized your mind and completely corrupted your compassion.

    Come back to humanity my friend.

    P.S. I'm still waiting for your response on why it was okay for God to intervene in human affairs in the past but can't do so now.

  • Slidin Fast
    Slidin Fast

    Its late here but I would like to make a point. The danger and negativity of Acts's contentions are serious. If we accept them it leads to us sitting in a proverbial cave waiting for all the nasty things to end and for god to make it all better. We have proved that we are useless and have no ability to flourish on our own. The result? We don't even try. Wedin't educate ourselves, we don't try and find a cure for cancer, we don't try to solve climate change. We just sit, read our bibles pray with our arms folded and hope.

    Meanwhile, those god-forsaken atheists are working to understand our world, solve it's problems and make life better for it's inhabitants. There are no guarantees that we will succeed, evolution may say otherwise but looking at the evidence of the last few centuries the progress is un-questionable. The war is not won, there is much yet to do but battles are being won every day. Now i'm going to bed.

    I would say that education, striving for answers and improvement and refusing to accept the ascendancy of evil makes it 1:0 to man v god.

    Don' wait for god. Let's help things along to the best of our ability.

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