The Knowledge of Good and Bad

by nicolaou 13 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  nicolaou

  Who decides what is good and bad? According to the Bible, God does;
  

  (Genesis 2:16-17) 16And Jehovah God also laid this command upon the man: "From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. 17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.". . .

  However, another player in the story argues that we each need to decide for ourselves what is good and what is bad;
  

  (Genesis 3:4-5) 4At this the serpent said to the woman: "YOU positively will not die. 5 For God knows that in the very day of YOUR eating from it YOUR eyes are bound to be opened and YOU are bound to be like God, KNOWING good and bad."

  Let's assume for the moment that God decides what is good and bad.
  

  Does He [a] choose what is good because it is obviously good or [b] is it good because He says so?

  If 'a' then what is good is independant of God and He has no choice but to accept it as good. If 'b' then the definition of what is good is arbitrary - God could decide that child abuse was good and it would be because He said so. Clearly this is ridiculous because we all recognise child abuse to be a bad thing and that is why God would never label it as good.

  To recognise this however is to accept that we do not need God to determine for us what is good and what is bad.

  (Genesis 3:6-7) . . .So she began taking of its fruit and eating it. Afterward she gave some also to her husband when with her and he began eating it. 7Then the eyes of both of them became opened . . .
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  Terry

  Good and Bad are not arbitrary.

  If you want pickles out of a jar you have to unscrew the lid and reach in to pull the pickle out.

  Good=unscrewing the lid+pulling a pickle out.

  Bad=smashing the jar with a hammer and mopping up the mess and picking glass particles out.

  What? You say this isn't morality; this is practical matters?

  Yes, that is what Good and Bad are; a matter of what works and what does not.

  Smashing the pickle jar will get you a pickle + an awful waste, a mess and a possible danger.

  The human mind is a practical rational tool for learning the skill set that produces the pickle in the most safety-insured method minus the mess and the danger.

  People learn or they don't learn what is practical in life. Many go around smashing jars right and left and then moan about the mess they are in and cry for help because they are bleeding.

  Genesis account of "good and bad" is written from an uninformed state of human history. There is no depth of understanding behind the writing of it. It is naive and mostly a mythos to explain the human condition while keeping the mental construct of GOD in the dominating position of authority and fairness.

  Genesis contains a silly "explanation" which has no data in it that is practical. To "learn" from it you must ignore it altogether.

  There is no JUSTICE in punishing people with absolutely no experience but, who are driven by natural curiousity and the desire to be like their father. It is all poppycock.

  So, let us consider this: The Genesis story is a __pretend__jar of pickles. It doesn't matter how hard you try to get a pickle out of it---there ain't none!

  T
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  Narkissos

  Imo, the issue of deciding right from wrong does not belong to the Genesis story (against the WT interpretation). The keyword is knowledge -- as stolen from the gods by man -- vs. life, i.e. immortality as retained by the gods. Of course knowledge encompasses practical and moral insights of "good" and "bad," but it is not limited to morality.

  However, I think Nicolaou's apory is a good one.

  The basic expressions of praise ("God is good, righteous, just," etc.) are meaningless (or at least tautological) unless "good, righteous, just" are in principle independent from God's will. And of course the logic of monotheism doesn't allow them to be independent. At this very point either "God" or "good, righteous, just" vanish into nonsense.
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  FairMind

  Good and bad are whatever the WTS says at the moment. They are also interchangeable. As new light comes to us from Gods word the Watchtower, Good can become bad and vice versa. Differing in thought from SLAVE is bad even though the thought is true. Lying is bad but then again it can be good if it protects the SLAVE. The false prophet J.D. Rutherford was good even when he lied and did other questionable acts. It is bad to know the truth about the WTS even though Jesus said that the truth would set you free. It is good to question false religious teachings except when these teachings emanate from MOTHER and then it becomes bad. If all of this is not clear then MY BAD and that is good.
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  fairchild

  I've been told over and over again "What is good in your opinion might not be good in God's opinion".

  Let's say you have a friend who tends to be quite lonely at night. Your friend's birthday is coming up and you give him a puppy for his birthday. Now, that is BAD, according to JWs, because you are not supposed to get involved with birthdays. You give this friend a puppy on any day but not on his birthday or on Christmas day, now, that is GOOD.

  GOOD is staying over at a JW friend's place and do some bible reading. BAD is staying over at a wordly friend's place because this friend is ill and you want to help him and take care of him.

  If you ask me, I think that the JWs have a WRONG knowledge of good and bad.I am female. Should I stay overnight a a male friend's place because this friend is very ill, I really don't think that God would hold that against me.

  Who decides what is good and bad?

  Obviously, the WTS does.
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  Balsam

  The concept of what is GOOD or BAD is relative to the person speaking and their understanding of the words. What is BAD to one person could be good to another, and visa versa for GOOD.

  Religions of all kind think that the bible is the divine word of God and therefore it defines what is good and bad as they individually understand its meaning. But everyone in the world does not subscribe to this believe and there for it is useless to those who don't. How can a person demand a person follow the rules set up by someones else as righteous if they don't go along with it.

  I do believe though that there is a kind of inborn consciousness that gives us clues as to good and bad at least for most folks.

  The bible is a book of mythos explaining the Israelites concept of their perception of who and what their God was all about. Even then it was written by a few men, and certainly not all Isrealites had a hand in determining the concept of God.

  Thanks how I see it today. Extremely different than I saw it 4 years ago. Never say never is a good motto.

  Ruth
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  Elsewhere

  Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

  That which benefits me is good from my perspective. That which harms me is evil from my perspective.

  Is free trade good? If it causes me to lose my job, it is evil from my perspective. If it causes someone overseas to obtain a job, it is good from his or her perspective.

  Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
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  tetrapod.sapien

  God could decide that child abuse was good and it would be because He said so.

  and he did too:

  "And they warred against the Midianites, as the Lord commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.... And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle. And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? .... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." Numbers 31
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  nicolaou

  Genesis account of "good and bad" is written from an uninformed state of human history. There is no depth of understanding behind the writing of it. It is naive and mostly a mythos to explain the human condition while keeping the mental construct of GOD in the dominating position of authority and fairness.

  Agree 100%

  I think this sort of discussion shows that God cannot be the source of morality without morality thus becoming something arbitrary. Right and wrong, goodness and badness do not depend on the existence of God. We must decide for ourselves.

  Take the story of Abraham as an example. When told by God to kill his son Isaac he was faced with a choice - to obey or disobey. Perhaps he reasoned that to disobey God was the worst thing a man could do so he draws his knife to slaughter his son. If I were God [!] I'd be outraged that Abraham failed this test - that he did not manage to reason for himself that to kill an innocent would be wrong no matter who gave the order.

  The spin that JW's and other Christians place on this Abraham story is absurd.
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  Flash

  If 'a' then what is good is independant of God

  and He has no choice but to accept it as good.

  I think you exactly nailed it with this sentance.

  1John 4: 8, "...God is love." It doesn't say God is 'loving' it says He IS love...Why? Hebrews 6:18 says it is also "...impossible for God to lie."...Why?? If it didn't matter, if it made no differance, why embrace love to the extent that you become it? Why make/insist that love be the law and order of things for his intelligent creatures? It must be because there is a law of existance that even God must submit to, otherwise lawless hedonisim would be the natural order of things. Love is self sacrificing and contributes to the advancement of the whole. Pride (which I believe is the opposite of love) is selfish and works against the advancement of the whole. Love is a law in itself where as Pride is lawless. Lawlessness to any degree is unacceptable. I believe Revelation 22: 15 proves this, in that liers are exluded the same as murderers from the Kingdom. When some cells of our body become lawless we do everything we can to correct it, even cutting parts of our body off to save it from the self-destuctive lawless cells. We don't want or allow any of them to exist within us. We call the lawless cells...Cancer.

  To recognise this however is to accept that we do not need God to determine for us what is good and what is bad.

  I disagree. We're creations of God...smaller versions of Himself. To the extent we understand good and bad is because He put a level of understanding of them within us. He is the Master we are the students. The reason He has allowed humanity to act on its own, to allow everyone to become a law unto themselves, was to show the natural decay that takes place when self-sacrificing love is not the standard. I believe it is also has physical manifistation, otherwise, again...why would God be love? Also, He told Adam and Eve they would die if they chose to deviate from His law. He did not say I will execute you, He said 'you will die.' I believe it is a case of natural 'cause and effect.' God is love and interestingly He is also the "King of Eternity," 1Timothy 1: 17 and Revelation 15: 3.