Expat and Simon,
I really wish you 2 would knock it on the head. You're both more than capable of being rational without all this antagonism.
When Brit meets Brit head-on look out .
Jesus wept!
Englishman.
Should the Troops be Pulled out of Iraq?
by searchfothetruth 89 Replies latest members adult
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Simon
Can't I just knock expat on the head and be done with it?
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expatbrit
Simon:
Hmmm, I'll have to get my discussion board magnifying glass out and look for those pro-American threads. I wonder if most of them were started by people who no longer post here?
Oh, and by the way, I purposely avoided stating that all left-wing people were welfare collecting drug addicts, so don't go getting bent out of shape because you're a taxpayer. But I bet I wont find too many right-wingers amongst the welfare collecting drug addict classes.
OK. I'm trying to keep calm Simon. This will be my last post on this thread, and quite probably on this subject (no guarantees, I'm human). If you respond, I wont, not because I'm being rude or ignoring you, but because there are simply better things to talk about and once I've said my piece, continually repeating it will only stir up more bad feeling. (KGB, feel free to take a blast in response to my post to you above. I can take it!)
My last post here is to say, PLEASE can we stop obsessing about America/Bush? The name of this board is Jehovah's-Witness Discussion Forum.com. It's not talkaboutAmericaallthetime.com, and it's definitely not BashAmerica.com or RantaboutBush.com. There are hundreds of other discussion boards that are for those political purposes. If that's what people want to do, why cant they post it on boards that are for that purpose?
In the past you, Simon, have said that what you would like this board to be is a place where people can come and safely chat about Watchtower related issues; where they find out information on the Jehovah's Witnesses and ask questions and get good information and advice, and where JW's can say what they really think without fear of retributon by the Society.
The fact is, this is an English site and most people who come here will be Americans, since they make up the vast majority of JW's in the English-speaking world. If they come here and see a constant litany of America/Bush threads (most of which are very negative about those two things, you must admit), they will simply disappear again. JW's, and people who might be about to get involved with the JW's, will not benefit from the noble purposes that you set this site up to achieve.
Not only that, but because of all the America/Bush threads, a LOT of people have stopped posting here. They didn't stop because they were extremists. I would be willing to bet a large sum of $ that I could go to another board and discuss with them my reasons for not liking Bush's religion, or the economics of the current administration, and they wouldn't leap on me and call me anti-American. They stopped posting here because they were sick and ired of having the same America/Bush stuff rammed down their throats all the time. They grew tired of being called warmongering fascists because they expressed pride in their country and agreement with it current government's activities. Same type of reason why people don't want to talk to the JW's, in fact. They were good people, and their postings contained sensible advice, experience and solid information. Their departure has been a real loss to this discussion board.
But, over the past couple of weeks, it seemed that the board was returning to that purpose. It was becoming an enjoyable place. there were good threads giving answers and information to people asking questions. There were good threads with information about Watchtower activities and doctrines. Isn't that what you wanted this board to be like? But now here we go again on the America/Bush thing, yet again ad nauseum. That's part of why moderation is needed, isn't it? To stop people spamming the board with the same stuff, over and over again? Isn't a characteristic of a troll their constant harping on the same thing over and over again?
You posted a thread asking everyone to keep on topic and not feed the trolls. Well, I would like to ask you to do that with the whole discussion board. Otherwise it really will become talkaboutAmericaallthe time.com. If that's what you want it to become, well, it's your board. But there wont be many people left here to discuss it with, and there wont be any benefit from this board to the x-JW community. Please don't let that happen.
Expatbrit
p.s Englishman, point taken. You are rational and balanced, as always.
Simon, pint glass at dawn, then?
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Simon
Hmmm, I'll have to get my discussion board magnifying glass out and look for those pro-American threads. I wonder if most of them were started by people who no longer post here?
Just a couple of recent ones.
Hard Facts of WMDs - The Faces of Children
The Sun never sets on the American Empire !
I disagree that threads are in fact pro or anti american. They are just threads. Within them you will find comments and different opinions. This very thread is an example. Do you really think it's anti-american or is it a discussion with some peope taking one position and other another?
Oh, and by the way, I purposely avoided stating that all left-wing people were welfare collecting drug addicts, so don't go getting bent out of shape because you're a taxpayer. But I bet I wont find too many right-wingers amongst the welfare collecting drug addict classes.
Well, no. That's like saying you won't find too many left wingers among the boards of oil companies.
OK. I'm trying to keep calm Simon. This will be my last post on this thread, and quite probably on this subject (no guarantees, I'm human). If you respond, I wont, not because I'm being rude or ignoring you, but because there are simply better things to talk about and once I've said my piece, continually repeating it will only stir up more bad feeling. (KGB, feel free to take a blast in response to my post to you above. I can take it!)
I'm not intending to stir up bad feeling but I feel insulted and annoyed when I see the oft-repeated but never backed up "america bashing" claim. It just makes me want to start bashing so people know what bashing really is. Trust me, I've never bashed. You'd know if I had.
My last post here is to say, PLEASE can we stop obsessing about America/Bush? The name of this board is Jehovah's-Witness Discussion Forum.com. It's not talkaboutAmericaallthetime.com, and it's definitely not BashAmerica.com or RantaboutBush.com. There are hundreds of other discussion boards that are for those political purposes. If that's what people want to do, why cant they post it on boards that are for that purpose?
I agree. I tried this and for my trouble got a lot fo stick from peolpe who wanted to post pro-war, pro-america stuff. It seems some can't comprehend that it would go both ways and if you don't like seeing "bush sucks" topics then there are equally people who don't like seeing "we're wonderful and you should all worship us" type topics. Neither are the purpose fo the forum BUT it is generally a very free and open site and people can and do discuss what interests them and what is happening at the time.
In the past you, Simon, have said that what you would like this board to be is a place where people can come and safely chat about Watchtower related issues; where they find out information on the Jehovah's Witnesses and ask questions and get good information and advice, and where JW's can say what they really think without fear of retributon by the Society.
Agreed. It's the primary reason why the site is here.
The fact is, this is an English site and most people who come here will be Americans, since they make up the vast majority of JW's in the English-speaking world. If they come here and see a constant litany of America/Bush threads (most of which are very negative about those two things, you must admit), they will simply disappear again. JW's, and people who might be about to get involved with the JW's, will not benefit from the noble purposes that you set this site up to achieve.
Well, I'd say they make up the majority of the American-speaking world ... English is a different matter
Actually, you are wrong - China has more English speaking peopel than America but I get your point.
Not only that, but because of all the America/Bush threads, a LOT of people have stopped posting here. They didn't stop because they were extremists. I would be willing to bet a large sum of $ that I could go to another board and discuss with them my reasons for not liking Bush's religion, or the economics of the current administration, and they wouldn't leap on me and call me anti-American. They stopped posting here because they were sick and ired of having the same America/Bush stuff rammed down their throats all the time. They grew tired of being called warmongering fascists because they expressed pride in their country and agreement with it current government's activities. Same type of reason why people don't want to talk to the JW's, in fact. They were good people, and their postings contained sensible advice, experience and solid information. Their departure has been a real loss to this discussion board.
Some people have stopped posting (up to them) and some have really shown themselves up as to how unreasonable they are. If they did not like hearing things they didn't like, they certainly didn't mind shouting about things that other people didn't like and making insults. I got tired of being called a saddam loving child-murder-loving communist for instance. Do I miss people like that? No, goodbyue and good riddance.
Some people who left were not like this and are missed but it's up to them.
But, over the past couple of weeks, it seemed that the board was returning to that purpose. It was becoming an enjoyable place. there were good threads giving answers and information to people asking questions. There were good threads with information about Watchtower activities and doctrines. Isn't that what you wanted this board to be like? But now here we go again on the America/Bush thing, yet again ad nauseum. That's part of why moderation is needed, isn't it? To stop people spamming the board with the same stuff, over and over again? Isn't a characteristic of a troll their constant harping on the same thing over and over again?
Again, the moderation is to keep things fair and maintain certain standards, not to prevent discussion. If people do overdo it then they are warned and stopped. This has already happened. However, I'm not going to start banning or locking certain topics unless we decide that everyone will abide by it. You know what? I can't be bothered with the whinging I'd get from the same people who dislike the discussions about America now complaining that their freedom of speech was being violated.
You posted a thread asking everyone to keep on topic and not feed the trolls. Well, I would like to ask you to do that with the whole discussion board. Otherwise it really will become talkaboutAmericaallthe time.com. If that's what you want it to become, well, it's your board. But there wont be many people left here to discuss it with, and there wont be any benefit from this board to the x-JW community. Please don't let that happen.
Personally, there are a lot more things I'd rather talk about than America BUT I dislike what I consider lies and miinformation so I will join in on topics when I think this is happening.
I really don't think there is a problem with all this except when people make a problem. For instance, where exactly do you think the anti-americanism is on this topic? Be honest. Do you not just find the subject matter uncomfortable given your position on the war?
Simon, pint glass at dawn, then
A pint of the right stuff will settle any disagreement and I'll be happy to have one with you anytime.
I really don't mean to be antagonistic but I've seen a lot of these complaints but no one ever backs them up and points to anything saying "look, that bit there". I have a suspicion that some use them as a delibarate ploy to avoid topics they don't like when they simply don't have an answer but they cannot resist just keeping quiet or, shock horror, agreeing with someone that they may have been wrong about something or deceived.
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searchfothetruth
QUACK< QUACK
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KGB
expatbrit,
If all this discussion was to be for JW discussion then I guess this would be one boring discussion board. I guess the many out of context threads that you make replies to where just in vain and you never took any part of? Well we all know that you are a part of the discussions here about JW as well as non-JW post. Here Simon does allow us to discuss what we feel needs to be talked about as long as it follows the guidelines which we do need. So don't come off on me as some kind of self righteous person who only answers to JW talk because thats a bunch of bull and you know it.
I got an opinion just like you do and as far as my educational level let me tell you I have an IQ of 144 what is your IQ ? I'll bet it don't compare and I will also add that I am a registered voter and I am also a vet of the US Army. I am also very much patriotic and I support my country with my life.
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czarofmischief
To drag this thread back to its original question:
Should the troops be pulled out of Iraq? Soon, yes. We've got a Shiite majority government almost ready to install, the food is flowing one way, the oil is flowing the other way - okay, our job is almost done.
Are they going to be? No. First because we are there to establish the Pax americana and rein in the Islamic extremism.
Secondly, I think Saddam is dead and that these attacks aren't really happening with the frequency and severity that is being fed to the press. They are being exaggerated and using the ghost of Saddam will give us a reason to invade either Syria or Iran (he's hiding there!).
IN conclusion, as a supporter of the war and of the President and a believer in the WMD presence (now I'm blinking thoughtfully about that), do I want an American empire? No, not really, but the alternative is to let the terrorists take over. If they win their war and drive all the Jews into the sea and establish their islamic fundamentalist reign of terror (to use an illustration about how terrible it would be, try saying this out loud: President Pat Buchanan! Ahhhh!!! ) then they won't leave us alone. They won't be content until the whole world is an Islamic state praying five times a day and our women in burqas.
As a personal sidenote, I recently encountered a skinhead on the street, passing out literature, and I was disgusted. My grandfather worked hard to crush that philosophy and now its flowing into the streets? Sick.
CZAR
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searchfothetruth
Interesting post Czar,
Here is an article from one of Britains daily papers today which you may find interesting.
RETURN TO THE CITY OF FEAR. from Ross Benson in Baghdad.
As yet more violence erupts on the streets of Baghdad the Mail's war correspondent returns to send this disturbing dispatch from a city gripped by rage, chaos...and a war that's far from over.
American soldiers waving their assault rifles in my face is something I have a serious aversion to. And I hate seeing the wounds those weapons can inflict on an innocent child who has the misfortune to be in the line of fire. While we're running through this checklist of negatives, I detest the chatter of helicopter gunships, the smell of high explosives, the sight of burning vehicles and the screams of the injured and dying.
I shouldn't have to encounter any of that - not here, at any rate. After all, this war is supposed to be over. President Bush declared it so, and Tony Blair agreed.
But turn the wrong corner in Baghdad on any ordinary day and you can walk slap into the lot. I have just done precisely that.
It was shortly after 10am and I was coming into Haifa street in the city centre. It is a clean, wide boulevard that emerged unscathed from the 'shock and awe' of the Allies aerial bombardment. What it hasn't survived, though, is what the Americans call the 'reconstruction'.
Half a mile ahead of me, a US army patrol was making its way down the road. There was a sudden explosion, followed immediately by the grunt of small arms fire. Cars stopped and people started ducking for cover.
Through the haze and the smoke I could see the wreckage of what, a moment before, had been an American Humvee.
An Iraqi who saw what had happened came running back down the street. 'A red VW drew up along side and hit it with a rocket-propelled grenade.' he shouted.
When they heard that three American soldiers had been seriously wounded in the blast, the surging, noisy crowd gave a loud cheer.
The article goes on to tell of the hatred towards the allies from the common Iraqi and the threats to journalists for collaberating with the enemy.
Every day troops are left there, more will be attacked. There aren't enough of them to control a country with a population this size. Should they pull them out? Of course. But they won't, for the reasons already stated. So what's the answer? Is it to send more troops and conquer the country properly, instead of trying the 'hearts and minds' approach which they seem to have lost.
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dubla
simon-
i just wanted to clear up something in your post that i feel was misrepresented.
I agree. I tried this and for my trouble got a lot fo stick from peolpe who wanted to post pro-war, pro-america stuff.
i dont believe it was one-sided whatsoever. when you suggested a halt to america topics, you had people on both sides expressing their wish to keep the discussions going, and people on both sides agreeing that they should be halted.......it was a divided opinion.
im confused about your personal feelings on it...ive noticed several times youve said that youve said you "agree" (as above) that the topics should go, but youve also said you "agree" that there shouldnt be a halt to the topics...?......seems contradictory to me. on one hand, you could do without the america/war threads, and on the other hand youre starting america/war threads. (??)
aa
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searchfothetruth
If people do not want to post on topics that discuss these type of issues, then they can very easily press the back button and post on the threads concerned with anal sex etc, which i'm sure are far more interesting and just as much to do with Jehovah's Witnesses as this topic is.