Jesus was gay - says academic (page 7)

ISP

Hooberus,

Virtually all scholars have Acts written in the second century. The idea that Pilate killed Jesus is doubted by many. Why does that terrible deed, the trial, the aftermath not appear in Pauls letters? The reference in Timothy is regarded as an interpolation. Most regard the pastoral letters to be written in the second century or at least after Pauls death.

If there is anything you genuinely have a problem with , let me know.

Quoting chunks from metacrock doesn't do it. I could quote Peter Kirby who took metacrocks arguments to pieces but I guess you know that.

ISP

Kenneson, I would expect him to rely on the gospel message and the prevailing knowledge of Jesus, even if that had not been written down. It seems he has no clue as to what happened to Jesus according to the gospels!

Romans 13:3-4
Rulers hold no terrors to those who do right. . . If you wish not to fear the authorities, then do what is good and you will have their approval, for they are God’s agents working for your good. [NIV/NEB]

How could you say that if you knew that Jesus had been unjustly convicted, tortured and killed by the authorities of his time?
ISP

Kenneson

Isp,

After quoting Rom. 13:3-4 you ask: "How could you say that if you knew that Jesus had been unjustly convicted, tortured and killed by the authorities of his time?"

Paul must have been a very forgiving and loving person. He was no more opposed to rulers than His master. Paul could speak from first hand experience of maltreatment by the authorities. He speaks of his many imprisonments and gives the example of the attempt of King Aretas at Damascus who tried to seize him at 2 Cor.4:9; See also 2 Cor. 6:5; 11:23, 32; Rom. 16:7; and 1 Cor. 4:12.

Maybe he also knew of "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's"--Mark 12:17 Sounds a lot like Rom. 13:7. Or maybe he knew of Matt. 17:24-27.

Myxomatosis

Hello, you said

Myxomatosis

Hello,

you said

Myxomatosis

Hi there ISP,

wie geht es Ihnen?

You said you quoted the wealth of Christian Scriptures out there,,, first off, I've got to say that I clearly see that you've read the criticism of the Bible, and Jesus obviously, but have you read what extensive proof there is out there? Or are you just willing to accept the one side without examining entirely the other? (I'm not saying that you haven't I dunno) would you be willing to make an inquiry into what proof there is? If you would like to, which I really think it is unfair to dismiss something without checking it out. Trust me, I've seen most every criticism, denouncement, and theory there is to see. Then, they are all refuted by actual history, easily enough. (easy yes.. short..no) So, please check out a book called 'Evidence that Demands a Verdict' by Josh McDowell,, have you heard of it? And also "The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ" (College Press) by Gary Habermas. Both are very useful, and you can obviously form whatever opinion, or choose to reject it if you wish. I do hope that you will, though, they have been invaluable to me. But, the extent of information I don't think I would much like to type out, in the interest of my carpals. So I won't, but I do hope if you really want to learn if HE lived on earth, you will hire these out.

It just sort of baffles me, because... do you NOT believe that Plato or Aristotle existed? Are they just a myth also? What about Caesar? Are their works we have in existence today you think largely what they wrote all those centuries ago?

Secondly, I did notice that the list of 'Christian' texts included the Nag Hammadi Gnostic Scripts,,, and I just read a book on them (by a very enthusiastic Gnostic I might add),,, and they are completely 100% nothing to do with Jesus (the 'living Jesus' is certainly not anything like the Jesus of the Bible, neither is any of it's 'theology') Not because they weren't 'conventional' or because they were 'rebels' but because it was entirely a different gospel from NC. They have never been accepted as inspired, or anything to do with Christianity. So please do not include them with anything from the Canonized Scripture. :)

Just one more thing, I do realize that there were and are other religions without any historical Person that thrived and are thriving (just peek at the East) but,,, Christianity is ENTIRELY built on the OBJECT of Christ,,, Christ is the object, without Him having existed, and being crucified and risen, then as Paul said, our faith be in vain.

So sorry I didn't introduce myself, I'm f/US never been a JW, only read the WTBTS history, quotes, dates, wothave you (frightening stuff,,,, entertaining :) So wot's your story? Are you an ex-JW probably? How long have you been df'd da'd? How'd you find out about their rubbish?

Cheers

Myxamatosis

avishai

Christainity existed before the apostle Paul, so he did not invent it.

No, he just twisted it. Paul was a dick.

avishai

Paul was a dick

Of course meaning detective in the 1940's film noir sense of the word.

Myxomatosis

Hi again ISP

I don't believe you've got that verse in the right context. I hate saying that, cos that's what a certain JW one time said to me about some quotes from the WT.

Anyways, the more complete verses are: (and this is a verse which needs historical interpretation)

Romans 13:

"Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist hhave been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted and those who do so will bring judgement on themselves."

"For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience."

In comparison, this is what you quoted:::

"Rulers hold no terrors to those who do right. . . If you wish not to fear the authorities, then do what is good and you will have their approval, for they are God’s agents working for your good. [NIV/NEB]

my NIV :: 'HE will commend you, ...HE does not bear,... HE is God's servant'

Notice, it is not 'they' but 'HE is God's servant... WHO HE?

NERO , who could hardly be called a servant of God. He persecuted Christians and viciously executed them. But in a limited sense, Nero did right when he punished criminals or maintained law and order. Paul urged first century believers to pray for their rulers so peace would be kept and the gospel could be spread.

That said, it is not limited to just Nero, in this case though, historically Paul was referring to Nero, but it applies elsewhere

What I want to point out, is Paul is in no way praising, or condoning the Execution of Christ (which if you will remember, the Sanhedrin were part of getting him to trial) he is telling his followers that:

The job of government: to punish and deter evildoers

13: 3-4

a. Paul's idea is that Christians should be the best citizens of all, though they are loyal to God before they are loyal to the state, they provide the state with no problems

b. Paul describes government officials as God's minister; they have a ministry in the plan and administration of God, just as much as church leaders do

i. If the state's rulers are God's minister (servant), remember they should remember that they are but servants - not gods themselves

c. It is through the just punishment of evil that government serves its function in God's plan of holding man's sinful tendencies in check; when a government fails to do this consistently, it opens itself up to God's judgment and correction

d. The sword is a reference to capital punishment; Paul sees the state as having that sort of authority legitimately

ISP

Maybe he also knew of "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's"--Mark 12:17 Sounds a lot like Rom. 13:7. Or maybe he knew of Matt. 17:24-27.

Kenneson, what a perfect opportunity to say exactly that, 'Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's'....to say something similar without quoting Jesus is very odd to me. It is as if what Jesus said was not known to Paul!! Or have I said that already!

ISP

Jesus was gay - says academic

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