Hello Gumby,
Thanks for your comments. I enjoy discussing the Bible with everyone, and I don't ever try to argue with anyone, although sometimes there is discussion that gets close to arguing.
You said:
You are equating the honor of god and Jesus with the same weight by stretching the scripture. You mentioned the word SAME when the scripture used the word AS.The point is they are both to be honored just as both of our fleshly parents are to be honored.
Well, Gumby, let's take a look at the Greek word for "even as":
The Greek word for "even as" that was used in John 5:23 is "kathos".
Thayer's Greek Bible Dictionary Definition of "kathos" (By the way, as a side-note, Thayer did not believe in the Trinity):
1) according as
1a) just as, even as
1b) in proportion as, in the degree that
2) since, seeing that, agreeably to the fact that
3) when, after that
____________________________________
Strong's Bible Dictionary Definition of "kathos":
just (or inasmuch) as, that: - according to, (according, even) as, how, when.
____________________________________
That is why the following Translations read like this:
Analytical-Literal Translation: so that all shall be honoring the Son just as they honor the Father. The one not honoring the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
Contemporary English Version: The Father wants all people to honor the Son as much as they honor him. When anyone refuses to honor the Son, that is the same as refusing to honor the Father who sent him.
Good News Translation: so that all will honor the Son in the same way as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.
"The Message" Translation: so that the Son will be honored equally with the Father. Anyone who dishonors the Son, dishonors the Father, for it was the Father's decision to put the Son in the place of honor.
New Century Version: so that all people will honor the Son as much as they honor the Father. Anyone who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.
1898 Young's Literal Translation: that all may honour the Son according as they honour the Father; he who is not honouring the Son, doth not honour the Father who sent him.
New International Version: that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.
Amplified Bible: So that all men may give honor (reverence, homage) to the Son just as they give honor to the Father. [In fact] whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, Who has sent Him.
New Living Translation: so that everyone will honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. But if you refuse to honor the Son, then you are certainly not honoring the Father who sent him.
English Standard Version: that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.
New King James Version: that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
Worldwide English New Testament: He did this so that all people would respect the Son, just as they respect his Father. My Father has sent his Son. Anyone who does not respect his Son does not respect the Father.
New Revised Standard Version: so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Anyone who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.
Holman Christian Standard Bible: so that all people will honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Anyone who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
_________________________________________
Also, we should look at how the Greek word "kathos" ("even as") is used in the New Testament, in order to find out the meaning of John 5:23:
Mark 11:3-6: And if anyone says to you, 'Why are you doing this?' say, 'The Lord has need of him,' and immediately he will send it here." And they departed, and found the colt tied up by the door outside in the street, and they untied him. But some of those standing there said to them, "What are you doing, loosing the colt?" And they told them just as ["kathos"] Jesus had commanded. And they gave them permission.
In Mark 11:3-6, "kathos" meant "the same as".
Luke 1:1-2: Since many have attempted to arrange a narrative about the matters which have taken place among us, just as ["kathos"] those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the Word delivered them to us,
In Luke 1:1-2, "kathos" meant "in the same way as".
Luke 19:30-32: saying, "Go into the village opposite you, in which when you enter you will find a colt tied up, on which no one of men has ever sat. Loose him and bring him here. And if anyone asks you, 'Why are you loosing him?' thus you shall say to him, 'Because the Lord has need of him.' " So those who were sent departed and found it just as ["kathos"] He told them.
In Luke 19:30-32, "kathos" meant "the same as".
John 12:50: And I know that His Command is eternal life. Therefore, whatever I speak, as ["kathos"] the Father has said to Me, thus I speak."
Jesus was saying that He spoke the same things His Father commanded Him to speak, so "kathos" in John 12:50 meant, "the same as".
John 15:10: If you keep My Commandments, you will abide in My love, just as ["kathos"] I have kept My Father's Commandments and I abide in His love.
In John 15:10, Jesus was using "kathos" to mean "in the same way as".
John 17:14: I have given them Your Word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as ["kathos"] I am not of the world.
In John 17:14. "kathos" meant "just like" or "in the same way as".
1 Corinthians 11:1: Be imitators of me [Paul], just as ["kathos"] I also am of Christ.
Paul was saying that Christians should imitate him the same as they Paul imitates Christ.
Ephesians 5:25: Husbands, love your own wives, just as ["kathos"] Christ also loved the Church and gave Himself for her,
Ephesians 5:25 says that husbands should love their wives the same as Jesus loves the Church [all Born-Again Christians].
1 John 2:6: He who claims to abide in Him [Jesus] ought himself also to walk just as ["kathos"] He walked.
In 1 John 2:6, "kathos" meant "the same as".
Romans 11:8: Just as ["kathos"] it is written: "God has given them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, to this very day."
In Romans 11:8 "kathos" meant "the same as".
1 Corinthians 1:31: that, as ["kathos"] it is written, "He that boasts, let him boast in the Lord."
In 1 Corinthians 1:31, "kathos" meant "the same as".
_____________________________________________
So, I believe "kathos" in John 5:23 means that everyone should honor The Son "the same as" or "just like" they honor The Father.
This is supported very strongly by Revelation Chapter 5, in which The Son receives exactly the same honor, glory, praise, and worship that The Father receives:
Revelation 5:11-14: Then I looked, and I heard as it were the voice of many angels around the throne, and the living beings, and the elders. And the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and a thousand thousands, saying with a loud voice: "Worthy is the Lamb [Jesus] who was slain to receive the power and the wealth and wisdom and strength, and honor and glory and blessing!" And every creature which is in Heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: "Blessing and honor and glory and power to Him [The Father] who sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb [Jesus], forever and ever. Amen!" -and the four living beings said "Amen!" And the elders fell down and worshipped.
_____________________________________________
Gumby said:
As for Hebrews chap 1. Does not the word for worship also mean obeisance? Can others besides god recieve obeisance without recieving worship as others in the bible recieved such as kings?
Very good question, Gumby.
The Greek word used for "worship" in Hebrews 1:6 is "proskuneo".
Thayer's Greek Bible Dictionary Definition of "proskuneo":
1) to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence
2) among the Orientals, especially the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence
3) in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication
3a) used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank
3a1) to the Jewish high priests
3a2) to God
3a3) to Christ
3a4) to heavenly beings
3a5) to demons
______________________________________
Strong's Bible Dictionary Definition of "proskuneo":
to fawn or crouch to, that is, (literally or figuratively) prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore): - worship.
______________________________________
Yes, it is true that the Greek word "proskuneo" is also used to describe people bowing down, giving obeisance, and showing honor to kings, and it is also used to describe religious worship to God (which only God should receive).
Most of the time, the context of the Scriptures helps to show which type of "proskuneo" is being given, whether it is "obeisance" or "religious worship".
For example, notice the following Scriptures:
Matthew 4:9-10: And he [Satan] said to Him [Jesus], "All these things will I give You, if You will fall down and worship ["proskuneo"] me." Then Jesus said to him, "Get behind Me, Satan! For it is written, 'You shall worship ["proskuneo"] the Lord your God, and Him alone you shall serve.' "
Those Verses are talking about religious worship, because Jesus said only God should receive that type of "proskuneo".
Matthew 18:25-27: But since he had nothing with which to repay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and everything that he had, and to be repaid. Therefore falling down ["proskuneo"] before him, the servant said, 'Master, have patience with me, and I will repay everything to you.' "And having compassion, the master of that servant released him, and forgave him the loan.
The context shows that in those Verses, it appears that it is not religious worship being given to the master, it is only honor. Or, if it was religious worship, both the slave and the master were committing idolatry.
Matthew 14:31-33: And immediately, Jesus reaching out His hand, laid hold of him, and said to him, "O you of little faith, why did you doubt?" And when they had gotten into the boat, the wind ceased. Then those who were in the boat came and worshipped ["proskuneo"] Him, saying, "Truly You are the Son of God."
That appears to be religious worship given to Jesus, because of the context. Notice, Jesus was walking on water, and made the wind cease, and then the people on the boat proclaimed "Truly You are the Son of God" and they gave Him "proskuneo".
Acts 10:25-26: Now when it happened that Peter entered, Cornelius met him, and fell at his feet and worshipped ["proskuneo"] him. But Peter raised him up, saying, "Stand up; I myself am also a man."
The context shows that it must have been religious worship that Cornelius gave to Peter, otherwise, I don't think Peter would have said "stand up, I am only a human".
Revelation 3:9: Behold, I will give those of the synagogue of Satan, those who say they are Jews and are not, but they are lying--behold, I will compel them to come and worship ["proskuneo"] before your feet, and they shall know that I have loved you.
Now, there are two ways of looking at that Verse:
(1): God will compel them to bow down and give honor to the holy ones, OR
(2): God will compel them to come before the holy ones and give religious worship to God.
But, I definitely do not believe God would make people give religious worship to other humans, which would break God's own Law on idolatry.
Now, let's discuss Hebrews 1:6, which reads:
Hebrews 1:6: But when He [The Father] again brings the Firstborn [Jesus] into the world, He says: "Let all the angels of God worship Him."
Hebrews 1:6 is quoting the Septuagint Version of Deuteronomy 32:43, which reads:
Deuteronomy 32:43 (Greek Septuagint): Rejoice, you Heavens, with Him, and let all the angels of God worship Him; rejoice you Gentiles, with His people, and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in Him; for He will avenge the blood of His sons, and He will render vengeance, and recompense justice to His enemies, and will reward them that hate Him; and the Lord shall purge the land of His people.
So, since Deuteronomy is talking about religious worship being given to God, I am pretty sure that Hebrews 1:6 means that religious worship should be given to Jesus.
Also, notice the context of Hebrews Chapter 1, and see what else it says about Jesus:
Hebrews 1:1-5: God, who in various ways and in many ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by the Son, whom He has appointed Heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; who being the Effulgence of His glory and the Exact Expression of His Substance, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty On High, having become so much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent Name than they. For to which of the angels did He ever say: "You are My Son, today I have begotten You"? And again: "I will be to Him for a Father, and He shall be to Me for a Son"?
Notice, it says that The Father created all things through Jesus, and Jesus is the Exact Expression of The Father's Substance, and that Jesus is better than all the angels, and that The Father never said to any angel that He would be His Father and that the angel would be His son, which proves that Jesus is not a created angel.
Hebrews 1:8-13: But to the Son He [The Father] says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness above Your companions." And: "You, LORD [Yahweh], in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the Heavens are the work of Your hands. They shall perish, but You continue; and they all shall grow old like a garment; and like a cloak You will roll them up, and they shall be changed. But You are the same, and Your years will not fail." But to which of the angels has He ever said: "Sit at My right hand, till I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet"?
The Father calls Jesus God, and The Father calls Jesus Yahweh, and The Father says that Jesus created all things in the beginning.
So, I believe, according to the context of Hebrews Chapter 1, that in Hebrews 1:6, The Father is commanding all angels to give religious worship to Jesus Christ, because Jesus is Yahweh God the Creator.
I hope this information helps, and if you have any questions or comments or different ideas or opinions, please post them.
