Need Help: My Correspondence with the Headquarters

by Lobsto 154 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • scholar

    Doug Mason

    Your answers as follows:

    1. The Bible does not provide for the 'moment' the 70 years ended but does provide historical and chronological for its ending: 2 Chron.36:20-23; Ezra 1:1, 3:1. The 'first year of Cyrus and the 'seventh month are described for the end of the period with the Decree of Cyrus and the Return of the Exiles. However, we can express the matter in terms of the Gregorian Calendar as September 29, 537 BCE for the beginning of Tishri, the seventh month or in terms of the Julian Calendar would be October 5. I can consult the tables and get down to the very time of day in hours and minutes based on the Vernal Equinox and Lunations of the Moon for 537 BCE if you so require.

    2. The Bible or ancient history does not provide guarantees but simply sufficient facts and historical data which enables the historian and Chronologist to determine and secure 537 BCE as the date for the Return.

    3. Celebrated WT scholars along with my good self declare 539 CE as a Pivotal Date for dating the OT and is universally supported by scholarship as the correct date for the Fall of Babylon.

    I agree with Thiele that the Bible does not present dates in a BCE format.

    If the Jews had followed Jeremiah's warning and repented then they would not have lost their Temple, City and Land for their judgement was provisional but as we know the rest is history.

    The two months after the destruction of Jerusalem in 607 BCE in the fifth month indeed provide adequate time for the Jews to flee and leave the Land totally desolate by the beginning of the seventh month, 607 BCE. With Jehovah nothing is impossible for he is the Great Timekeeper.


  • Finkelstein

    With Jehovah nothing is impossible for he is the Great Timekeeper.

    He must be the great liar like his earthly servants of the Watchtower Corporation as Nebuchadnezzar didn't take to throne of Babylon not until 605 BCE , the bible then states that he made the final destruction of Jerusalem occur in his 19th year of rein which would have been 586 BCE.

    Scholar must be one of Satan's servants, the great liar and deceiver.

  • Gorbatchov

    What a fun discussion, remembering that most African seekers here in Holland don't know there exact birthday and you think you can be certain on this.


  • johnamos
  • johnamos

    Quote - And as for the scripture at Jeremiah 29:10, every modern translation I looked at, except for ours, said that 70 years must be completed FOR Babylon, not at. - End quote

    The WTS actually claims that the 70 years are FOR Babylon:

    [Isaiah’s Prophecy 1 p. 253-254 par. 21 He says: “These nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.” (Jeremiah 25:8-17, 22, 27) True, the island-city of Tyre is not subject to Babylon for a full 70 years, since the Babylonian Empire falls in 539 B.C.E. Evidently, the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination—when the Babylonian royal dynasty boasts of having lifted its throne even above “the stars of God.” (Isaiah 14:13) Different nations come under that domination at different times. But at the end of 70 years, that domination will crumble.]

    Quote - and get some help researching my next rebuttal. - End quote

    This is all you should need to ask the WTS:

    (Q) When did Jehovah say he was going to call Babylon to account?

    [Jeremiah 25:12 “‘And it must occur that when seventy years have been fulfilled I shall call to account against the king of Babylon and against that nation,’ is the utterance of Jehovah,]

    (Q) What year did Jehovah call Babylon to account?

    [8-1-81 WT p. 27-28 - “The idol-worshiping Babylonians now were in line for God’s judgment to be executed upon them. That happened in 539 B.C.E. when Babylon was overthrown by the Medes and the Persians.”]

    Jehovah's appointed time to call Babylon to account was when 70 years had been fulfilled and being that he did so in 539 would mean the 539 must have been the 70th year of the 70 years, which would mean they began in 609. To claim that the 70 years were from 607 to 537 would make 539 the 68th year of those 70 years and it would mean that Jehovah jumped ahead of his own appointed time by 2 years, but according to the following that can't be the case, which means 607-537 is wrong and 609-539 is correct.

    [11-15-98 WT p. 15-16 par.3 – We know that Jehovah is the Great Timekeeper, and we have confidence that he never fails to fulfill his purposes at his appointed time.]

  • BluesBrother

    Debates about 587/607 have been going on longer than I can remember and both sides are still entrenched in their views. All I know is that such dates are debatable , to say the least, and no basis for Christian faith or hopes for an imminent New World.

    Anyway it is good to see Doug Mason back, and Scholar too, this board has missed your level of discussions.

  • Finkelstein

    So if Nebuchadnezzar started his accession over Jerusalem in 605, did that start the time of desolation ?

    The WTS. holds that the desolation started when Jerusalem was finally destroyed including the Temple and a large segment of the population was taken to Babylon by their date of 607 therefore fulfilling the 70 year prophesy.

    History tells another story though.

    605 - 537 = 68 years ... note that's using the 537 year ???

  • Jerome56


    Is there any way of obtaining a pdf copy of their response? I would love to show my family but it would be more convincing if it were on their official letterhead.

  • cha ching
    cha ching

    I like the itty bitty teeny tiny quote from the 2011 WT... which says (basically) 'if you go by the business tablets from Babylon's very own time period (instead of the huge picture of a rock (from 200 years later, from a different country) with a crack thru it, featured, highlighted, debated and discussed in detail as if it were the messiah of all discoveries) then Babylons fall was in 587. Period.

    All of the blabbering they do in those two articles (cleverly broken up into two different months so you can't remember the "we'll discuss this later" crap they always do to divert your attention) is only done to make themselves look like they have done soooo much research.

  • Finkelstein

    Scholar calls the WTS bible theologians celebrated scholars when in truthful reality they are and were novice con men who enacted within themselves as apostates against Jesus's guidance and instructions for preaching his new Kingdom, endeavored through their literature proliferation agenda.

    These men promoted and self identified themselves as true adherent bible interpreters loyal to Jehovah when in reality they were corrupt charlatans luring others to become subservient to them, not to Jehovah or his son Jesus Christ.

    Its no wonder so many have called the leaders of the WTS/JWS Satan's servants since they've come to lie, mislead, deceive, exploit and manipulate people.

    ......... Right Scholar ?

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