waton, touché.
jusqu'à quel profondeur? DJ?
What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?
by Vanderhoven7 263 Replies latest watchtower bible
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waton
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JW GoneBad
I'll tell you what name the JWs like to emphasize. I was at a meeting this week and the dude Elder who opened with prayer repeated the term/name 'Jehovah'...must of been 15 times...from beginning to end he would begin a sentence with 'Jehovah' and end the same sentence with 'Jehovah'. It went something like this:
"Dear Jehovah bless our meeting today Jehovah! And please Jehovah may your Holy Spirit be with all those who have a part tonight Jehovah"...on and on and on!
Then the dude Ministerial Servant got up to close the meeting with prayer...it was similar like this:
"Thank you Jehovah for the spiritual feast we had tonight Jehovah. And Jehovah please watch over us Jehovah as we each go our separate way to our homes Jehovah"...on and on and on...I think he mentioned the name/term some 11/12 times in his prayer!
Personally...I think God Almighty tunes-out these type of juvenile/immature prayers!
The question and answer sessions were very similar in nature. Each and every JW member when giving an answer would start their sentence with Jehovah and end the sentence with Jehovah. So if their comment consisted of 5 sentences they would of mentioned the term 6 to 8 times...silly!
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Disillusioned JW
Rattigan350, blondie, and Vanderhoven7, I typed up a post which was a reply to all of you, but I accidentally deleted it from computer memory before saving a copy of it in a text file. I will try to recreate it from my memory but it probably won't be as good as what I originally wrote.
JW GoneBad, the examples you gave of the manner of usage of the name "Jehovah" at Kingdom Halls of JWs, including in public prayers, also sounds strange to me. I never used it in that manner at the Kingdom Halls or elsewhere, and I was a ministerial servant for several years.
waton, I don't know French, except for a few French words. But according to Google, I learned that "jusqu'à quel profondeur?" means "how deep?", or something like that. But the word "profondeur" seems very similar to the English word "profound" and based upon the context I wonder if "jusqu'à quel profondeur?" is more accurately translated into English as "how profound?' Google even says "profound" in English translates into "profond" in French. Do you speak much French?
I used the word "touché", despite it being French, because it is often used in English as part of English sentences and I thought it was a fitting reply to make to you. Likewise the French word "résumé" is often used in English, but because of widespread communication using computers with keyboards which lack non-English characters, in the USA and on the internet (on English language sites) it is now often spelled without the accent marks.
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JW GoneBad
Disillusioned JW: "...the examples you gave of the manner of usage of the name "Jehovah" at Kingdom Halls of JWs, including in public prayers, also sounds strange to me."
I estimate that the amount of times the term Jehovah is mentioned at a JW meeting from opening prayer to closing prayer & in between would be from 200 to 250 times. And the amount of times the term Jesus is mentioned would be less than 5 times...Seriously!
I doubt that Raymundo Martini, the one who coined the term 'Jehovah', ever intended it to be used, overused and abused in this fashion...Seriously!
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Fisherman
Jehovah is mentioned at a JW meeting from opening prayer to closing prayer & in between would be from 200 to 250 times
He is worshipped.
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GodBeliever
But just when he had resolved to do this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife, for the child conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will bear a son, and you are to name him Jesus(Jehovah saves), for he will save his people from their sins.” Matthew 1:20-21
"I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son." John 14:13
"Father, glorify your name.” Then a voice came from heaven, “I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again.” The crowd standing there heard it and said that it was thunder. Others said, “An angel has spoken to him.” Jesus answered, “This voice has come for your sake, not for mine."John 12:28-30“I have made your name known to those whom you gave me from the world. They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. And now I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one, as we are one. John 17:6, 11
"And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. So we are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God."
2 Corinthians 5:18-20"Fill their faces with confusion, That they may seek thy name, O Jehovah. That they may know that thou alone, whose name is Jehovah, Art the Most High over all the earth." Psalms 83:16, 18
"And I will execute great vengeance upon them with wrathful rebukes; and they shall know that I am Jehovah, when I shall lay my vengeance upon them."
Ezekiel 25:17Jesus is the name that God gave Him which is Jehovah's name. Christ means anointed. So Jesus was anointed to announce Jehovah salvation that was to be done trough Jesus.
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GodBeliever
The Spirit of the Lord Jehovah is upon me; because Jehovah hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; to proclaim the year of Jehovah’s favor, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; to appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them a garland for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they may be called trees of righteousness, the planting of Jehovah, that he may be glorified. And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations. But ye shall be named the priests of Jehovah; men shall call you the ministers of our God: ye shall eat the wealth of the nations, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves. For I, Jehovah, love justice, I hate robbery with iniquity; and I will give them their recompense in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them. And their seed shall be known among the nations, and their offspring among the peoples; all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the seed which Jehovah hath blessed. I will greatly rejoice in Jehovah, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with a garland, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels. For as the earth bringeth forth its bud, and as the garden causeth the things that are sown in it to spring forth; so the Lord Jehovah will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.
Isaiah 61:1-4, 6, 8-11
Yes Jesus emphasizes the name of His Father.
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Disillusioned JW
Hey GodBeliever. in your post, the one dated to three hours prior this post of mine, you used four verses that I had had planned to use in an upcoming post (the pending one I said I had accidentally deleted). You preempted me; impressive.
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BoogerMan
Exact same topic & scriptures posted on Reddit ex-JW 5 years ago - less arguments!
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/7qb7yh/14_questions_for_jws_to_consider/
The scriptures tell Christians to witness for Christ - not for God.
(Matthew 10:18) And you will be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a witness to them and the nations.
(Mark 13:9) “As for you, look out for yourselves. People will hand you over to local courts, and you will be beaten in synagogues and be put on the stand before governors and kings for my sake, for a witness to them.
(Luke 24:47, 48) and on the basis of his (Jesus') name, repentance for forgiveness of sins would be preached in all the nations—starting out from Jerusalem. You are to be witnesses of these things.
(John 1:15) (John bore witness about him, (Jesus) yes, he cried out: “This was the one of whom I said, ‘The one coming behind me has advanced in front of me, for he existed before me.’”)
(John 5:37) And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. You have neither heard his voice at any time nor seen his form,
(John 8:18) I am one who bears witness about myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness about me.”
(John 15:26, 27) When the helper comes that I will send you from the Father, the spirit of the truth, which comes from the Father, that one will bear witness about me; and you, in turn, are to bear witness, because you have been with me from the beginning.
(Acts 1:8) But you will receive power when the holy spirit comes upon you, and you will be witnesses of me in Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samaria, and to the most distant part of the earth.”
(Acts 10:39) And we are witnesses of all the things he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem; but they did away with him by hanging him on a stake.
(Acts 10:43) To him (Jesus) all the prophets bear witness, that everyone putting faith in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”
(Acts 13:31) and for many days he became visible to those who had gone with him from Galilee up to Jerusalem. These are now his witnesses to the people.
(Acts 22:15) because you are to be a witness for him (Jesus) to all men of the things you have seen and heard.
(Acts 22:20) and when the blood of Stephen your witness was being spilled, I was standing by and approving and guarding the outer garments of those doing away with him.’
(Acts 23:11) But the following night the Lord stood by him and said: “Take courage! For just as you have been giving a thorough witness about me in Jerusalem, so you must also bear witness in Rome.”
(Acts 26:16) But rise and stand on your feet. This is why I have appeared to you, to choose you as a servant and a witness both of things you have seen and things I will make you see respecting me.
(1 Corinthians 1:6) ...just as the witness about the Christ has been made firm among you,
(1 Timothy 2:6, 7) ...who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all—this is what is to be witnessed to in its own due time. For the purpose of this witness I was appointed a preacher and an apostle...............
(2 Timothy 1:8) So do not become ashamed either of the witness about our Lord or of me,.......
(1 John 5:9) If we accept the witness of men, the witness of God is greater. Because this is the witness God gives, the witness that he has given about his Son.
(Revelation 1:9) I John, your brother and a sharer with you in the tribulation and kingdom and endurance in association with Jesus, was on the island called Patmos for speaking about God and bearing witness concerning Jesus.
(Revelation 12:17) So the dragon became enraged at the woman and went off to wage war with the remaining ones of her offspring, who observe the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness concerning Jesus.
(Revelation 17:6) And I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the holy ones and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus.
(Revelation 19:10) At that I fell down before his feet to worship him. But he tells me: “Be careful! Do not do that! I am only a fellow slave of you and of your brothers who have the work of witnessing concerning Jesus. Worship God! For the witness concerning Jesus is what inspires prophecy.”
(Revelation 20:4) And I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed for the witness they gave about Jesus......
Christians were to witness for Christ. There is not a single verse in the Bible which commands Christians to witness for God. Christ Jesus was God's appointed witness.
(Revelation 1:5) "....Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,”
(Revelation 3:14) "....the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God:"
(Revelation 19:11) "And the one seated on it is called Faithful and True,.."
The following verses clearly demonstrate to all Christians that they were to rely on Christ's name for all things - because he was their mediator for all things.
(Isa. 62:2) “The nations will see your righteousness, O woman, And all kings your glory. And you will be called by a new name, [Christians] which Jehovah’s own mouth will designate. (see Acts 11:26)
(Matthew 10:22) And you will be hated by all people on account of my name, (Jesus) but the one who has endured to the end will be saved.
(Matthew 18:20) For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst.”
(Matthew 19:29) And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands for the sake of my name will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit everlasting life.
(Matthew 24:9) “Then people will hand you over to tribulation and will kill you, and you will be hated by all the nations on account of my name.
(Luke 10:17) Then the 70 returned with joy, saying: “Lord, even the demons are made subject to us by the use of your name.”
(Luke 21:12) “But before all these things happen, people will lay their hands on you and persecute you, handing you over to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and governors for the sake of my name.
(Luke 21:16, 17) Moreover, you will be handed over even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death, and you will be hated by all people because of my name.
(John 2:23) However, when he was in Jerusalem at the festival of the Passover, many people put their faith in his
(Jesus') name when they saw the signs that he was performing.
(John 5:27, 28) And he has given him authority to do judging, because he is the Son of man. Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice......
(John 14:26) But the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach you all things and bring back to your minds all the things I told you.
(John 15:16) You did not choose me, but I chose you, and I appointed you to go and keep bearing fruit and that your fruit should remain, so that no matter what you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.
(Acts 2:38) Peter said to them: “Repent, and let each one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the free gift of the holy spirit.
(Acts 3:6) However, Peter said: “Silver and gold I do not possess, but what I do have is what I give you. In the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, walk!”
(Acts 4:10) let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel that in the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you executed on a stake but whom God raised up from the dead, by means of him this man stands here healthy in front of you.
(Acts 8:16) For it had not yet come upon any one of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
(Acts 9:14-16) And here he has authority from the chief priests to arrest all those calling on your (Christ's) name.” But the Lord said to him: “Go! because this man is a chosen vessel to me to bear my name to the nations as well as to kings and the sons of Israel. For I will show him plainly how many things he must suffer for my name.”
(Acts 10:48) With that he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they requested him to stay for some days.
(Acts 11:26) After he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year they assembled with them in the congregation and taught quite a crowd, and it was first in Antioch that the disciples were by divine providence called Christians.
(Acts 16:18) She kept doing this for many days. Finally Paul got tired of it and turned and said to the spirit: “I order you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her.” And it came out that very hour.
(Acts 19:5) On hearing this, they got baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
(Acts 22:16) And now why are you delaying? Rise, get baptized, and wash your sins away by your calling on his (Jesus') name.’
(1 Corinthians 6:11) ....you have been declared righteous in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and with the spirit of our God.
(2 Corinthians 5:15) And he died for all so that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for him who died for them . . .
(Ephesians 1:7) By means of him we have the release by ransom through the blood of that one, yes, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his undeserved kindness.
(Philippians 2:10) so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground—
(Hebrews 13:15) Through him (Jesus) let us always offer to God a sacrifice of praise, that is, the fruit of our lips that make public declaration to his [Jesus'] name. (see 27 "witness" scriptures)
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Disillusioned JW
This post is a recreation (but with modifications, including enhancements and expansions) of what I intended to post earlier but accidentally deleted.
Rattigan350, I agree with you that according to the New Testament Jesus is one of the witnesses of Jehovah. I also agree with you that the context of what was said is important. I also agree that it is not necessary that a specific phrase be used, provided the context clearly indicates the same meaning.
blondie, according to John 17:4-17 Jesus is one the witnesses of God the Father (Jehovah/YHWH). According to the chapter those verses are a record of some of what Jesus said in prayer to God the Father (Jehovah). Note the following. In verse 4 Jesus tells the Father that he (Jesus) has glorified the Father on the earth. Verse 6 (1984 NWT) records Jesus as saying to the Father "I have made your name manifest to the men you gave me out of the world." Verse 8 says that Jesus gave the men the sayings which the Father gave to Jesus, and Jesus says he came as the representative of God the Father. In verse 14 Jesus says he gave the word of the Father to the men. In verse 17 Jesus says that the Father's word is truth and in verse 18 Jesus tells the Father "you sent me forth into the world".
Clearly those verses in the Gospel of John (that is, the Gospel attributed as being according to John) indicate that according to that gospel Jesus is a witness of God the Father (Jehovah/YHWH). The NT also says that Jesus is a great prophet of Jehovah God the Father. Revelation 1:5 (1984 NWT) even says that Jesus Christ is "the Faithful Witness" and Revelation 3:14 (1984 NWT) says that the "Amen" (whom the verse says is the "the beginning of the creation of God", whom we know the Bible says is Jesus Christ) is "the faithful and true witness". Doesn't such mean that according to the NT that Jesus is thus a great witness of Jehovah God the Father?
Vanderhoven7, the fact God Jehovah (Jehovah God) did not make sure that his name was included in the New Testament, coupled with the fact that modern-day biblical scholars do not know for sure the correct pronunciation of his name, is part of the strong evidence to me that Jehovah God doesn't exist.
That is because the OT claims that numerous times YHWH, when speaking to a number of the prophets, said that his specific name of YHWH (Yahweh/Jehovah) must be proclaimed to the people! According to the OT YHWH wanted his name, not merely his reputation and accomplishments, but his literal specific name of YHWH, to be proclaimed extensively to the people! If such a God exists then it is shocking that the NT (in any of the extant ancient manuscripts) doesn't use his name even one time. But if Jehovah/Yahweh God doesn't exist, then there no mystery why the his name isn't used in the NT. These things are thus part of the evidence that the Bible (whether the OT or the NT or both, like the Apocrypha) is entirely the word of humans, and not at all the world of YHWH God or of any god.
Folks, regarding John chapter 17 there is something I find very puzzling in verse 11. There it claims that Jesus told God the Father "... your own name which you have given me ...". What name is this gospel account claiming Jesus said was the Holy Father's name which was given to Jesus?
Is it the name YHWH/Yahweh/Jehovah? If so, then why doesn't the NT ever mention that name in any of the extant ancient manuscripts? Granted NT says that the name Jesus was given to Christ by God (according to Matthew 1:20-21), and that name means "Jehovah is salvation", but that is not the same name as "Jehovah". The NT says that Christ, besides being named Jesus, was also called "Lord" and said to be "God/god". Are either of those 'names' the name of the Father that the NT says was given to Christ? In at least one verse Paul applied the word "Lord" to Jesus when quoting a verse in the OT in which the word "Lord" is used in the Greek Septuagint in place of the name Yahweh/Jehovah.
Matthew 1:22-23 says that Jesus was to be called "Immanuel", but nowhere else in the NT is that name used. I wonder why it is used nowhere else in the NT.