Remembering Rutherford

by Sea Breeze 156 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • minimus

    The Watchtower did not lose money for their publications. They made money. When tax issues arose, the Watchtower realized they should stop asking for “the contribution just to cover the cost of the publications”. Dis, you really can’t trust a false prophet, unless of course you change your mind again.

  • dropoffyourkeylee

    The transition from booksellers to non- profit distributers for donation ( at least in the US) was a long and torturous one. They definitely were book sellers for decades through the ‘30’s at least. At some point in the ‘40’s they morphed into ‘collect the printing cost’, probably in response to court cases to evade laws on soliciting. In about 1990 they went to donations only for all literature (US), again for legal reasons to avoid taxation.

  • Rocketman123

    For the longest time the WTS/JWS bragged about not using a tithing arrangement as other religions had done but the WTS still made money from their self produced products and of course personal financial donations .

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    minimus, regarding your statement of "Dis, you really can’t trust a false prophet, unless of course you change your mind again", when I momentarily switched back to thinking the WT was not commercialized I was not yet fully convinced that the WT was (and is) a charlatan and I was not yet fully convinced it was (and is) a false prophet, though I had begun to heavily lean in that direction. Also I was thinking that even if they are a false prophet, they still might have been sincere in making their predictions/'prophecies' just like many Christians today believe that God through his holy spirit gives them ideas and guidance and even tells them things.

    While I was still making up my mind about whether the WT was a charlatan and a false prophet I had switched back to saying that the WT was not commercialized (see ). But, one day after that (after I read a couple of posts of others and thought about them) I concluded that that the WT maybe had sold literature (and if true, then they are dishonest and at times even lying about the matter) - (see ). Such caused me to think that maybe the WT was commercialized. Later I noticed that WT literature sometimes (even in some of Rutherford's books) specifically states that the amount of money requested for literature was a request for a contribution.

    It wasn't until about three days after I concluded that the WT probably was probably commercialized and that it might (even probably) technically be a false prophet (even if sincere in their predictions/'prophecies') that I discovered Rutherford's definition of prophecy in his book called Life. It was that discovery (of which I made a post about today; see page 13 of this topic thread) that convinced me that the WT is in some senses a false prophet.

    Did I say I trust the WT? I don't believe I said that. I don't believe everything they say, though I admittedly provisionally trust some of their claims without direct evidence. I read their literature critically and research some of the claims they make. Some things they say are true, but some other things they say are not true. It is somewhat like how I consider former President Trump to be a habitual excessive compulsive liar while at the same time I recognize that some things he said are true, and that he had some good policies (and that I need to think critically about what he says and research sources to do fact checking). It is a matter of using discernment with one's information sources.

    Regarding the sales tax issue about collecting money for literature (including magazines) I think (more than I thought until a couple of days ago) that it wasn't just the WT wanting to avoid having to pay sales tax. It think it was also about how complicated it would be to properly collect sales taxes (other than at conventions in response to ads in literature) and thus I now think they were telling a major part of the truth when they said they changed their contribution policy (partly in order to simplify matters).

    Think about it. JWs while engaged in the field ministry would have to inform people about the sales tax and the JW publishers would have to collect the proper amount and submit proper paperwork to the WT (via their congregation) about the sales tax. Likewise the people working in the magazine and literature counters at the Kingdom Halls would have to properly collect sales tax and send the documentation correctly to the WT (via the congregation's accounts servant). If there were errors (including if publishers picked up literature at the Kingdom Halls and left behind money, or no money at all, and didn't leave a note saying what they took, when no servant was present) it could create a big recording keeping problem. [Even before the contribution procedure was simplified it was still a problem creating accurate records of the literature (including magazines) distributed from the counters and collecting the money; in a congregation I attended locks were put onto the literature and magazine cabinets to help solve the problem.] Furthermore JWs collecting sales tax might would have to be classified as sales employees of the WT. Yet virtually none of the JWs are qualified to properly handle such business type transactions and the associated record keeping.

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    On I made a post which said, in part, "I think that Rutherford's writing theological/religious books and getting them published is a form of religious ministry as well as him giving public talks (including at conventions), even though those activities are not in the form of door-to-door ministry." I later discovered, prior to July 6, 2021, that Rutherford said in his Religion book, that others doing such do not substitute for the door-door preaching work.

    Page 214 of the book says the following (as transcribed from ). 'Some amongst the consecrated were inclined to think that because of their position and standing in the congregation they should not engage in the house-to-house witness work, but that their part was chiefly to make speeches and to serve at meetings. But note the instruction of the Lord through his prophet concerning such: "Let the priests, the ministers of the Lord, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, 0 Lord, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God?" — Joel 2:17.'

    Note that on page 214 of the Religion book Rutherford criticizes those who claim they need not go out door-door preaching instead of giving speeches serving at meetings. Note also what he said on the topic in paragraphs subsequent to the one I quoted from. As a result, my defense of Rutherford in this particular matter is negated by Rutherford's own words in his book called Religion. Wow! I think those words of Rutherford were also intended to criticize Russell - who gave speeches but who probably did not (at least not significantly) engage in door-door preaching (though his organization hired colporteurs to sell WT books).

    There is more evidence that I discovered from Rutherford's books which I could post into this topic thread, but I think I have posted enough to show there are major problems with the WT organization and with Rutherford's writings. I thus now intend to spare myself the time and effort of typing such additional examples into this topic thread.

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    Well though I intended to not make another post about Rutherford's writings in this topic thread, I eventually couldn't resist making this post, regarding what is in Rutherford's last book, the one called Children. Notice what one of the fictional characters say in the last few paragraphs of the last chapter of the book. The following is a quote from those paragraphs, as transcribed at .

    'Armageddon is surely near, and during that time the Lord will clean off the earth everything that offends and is disagreeable. Then, by His grace, we shall begin our life with a greater vision and prolonged joy. Now we see by faith the great THEOCRACY, and we are wholly and unreservedly committed to that righteous government. From now on we shall have our heart devotion fixed on THE THEOCRACY, knowing that soon we shall journey for ever together in the earth. Our hope is that within a few years our marriage may be consummated and, by the Lord's grace, we shall have sweet children that will be an honor to the Lord. We can well defer our marriage until lasting peace comes to the earth. Now we must add nothing to our burdens, but be free and equipped to serve the Lord. When THE THEOCRACY is in full sway it will not be burdensome to have a family. Then we may often walk through these broad fields, amidst the beautiful forests and environments, and will walk with our beloved children by our side and tell them all we have learned from the Lord,


    and together we shall all be quick to obey our Leader and our King, Christ Jesus."

    "I recall, John dear, that your father will be asking you now for your decision as to the future and what you shall do."

    "Eunice, my decision is made. I shall shun politics, religion, and commerce, and I shall avoid the cities and the enticements thereof. We are both committed for ever to THE THEOCRACY. Our present duty is plain. We must now be witnesses to the name of Jehovah and to his kingdom. Our place of residence we can continue with our parents as long as it is God's will to have it so, and we shall engage in the service of the Lord by carrying his message of his name and kingdom to others who are hungering for righteousness. We shall, by God's grace, be forever the children of the great King, and our children shall be forever with us, subjects of the Kingdom. We have found refuge in Christ, and we shall abide here until the blessed time when we may have part in fulfilling the divine mandate. We shall not see each other very often for a time, but we can have like thoughts every day of the glorious prospect that is set before us. I suggest that our first thought on awakening each morning be expressed by repeating these words of the psalmist: 'Bless the Lord, 0 my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name. Bless the Lord, O


    my soul, and forget not all his benefits.' — Psalm 103:1,2."

    To this young man and young woman all the environments now appeared more beautiful. The birds in the trees seemed to be singing the praises of Jehovah and His King. So, hand in hand, they joined their voices with them in song and gave thanks to God for His manifold blessings bestowed upon them.'

    Notice that Rutherford, through the fictional characters of his book, a book intended for JW children, very strongly encouraged young JWs to not get married to after lasting peace is obtained after the end of Armageddon! That book is copyright 1941! Imagine how many JW lives were adversely effected by that book. The WT's current adverse attitude towards secular higher education can thus be traced to that book by Rutherford, if not also even further back into the history of the WT.

    An ex-JW is reported as saying the following (as stated at in an article from the year 2019) in regards to this policy (including as proclaimed by Tony Morris).

    'For those of you that don’t know about Jehovah’s Witnesses, Tony Morris, as one of the Governing Body members (leaders of the religion) has gained celebrity status due to the JW Broadcasting, their TV network on JW org, where Jehovah’s Witnesses can get constant propaganda piped into the house 24/7.

    Anyway, Tony is one of the best GB members at employing very effective guilt tactics to keep the cult members in line. He is on tape in Trinidad telling JWs that if they are not in the field ministry every single week, their hands are dirty with blood and therefore they are bloodguilty and WILL die at Armageddon (he should know, apparently, because I guess it will be him and not Jesus who will be judging people at Armageddon).


    This is the same Tony who rails against parents to allow their kids to go to college (JWs are **heavily** discouraged from obtaining a higher education). This is shown in one of his JW Broadcasting videos where he blames parents for their children leaving the organization because they allowed them to have a college education.

    This is the same organization that teaches it’s members from infancy to take menial jobs (if they have to have a job at all) that will barely support them so that they can spend most of their time in the field ministry (pounding on doors) and who are constantly glorifying people who quit their jobs if they interfere with meetings, Bible study time, Family Worship, field ministry, or assemblies and conventions. They also glorify those who live in poverty in order to preach full-time. We hear about these JWs over and over at meetings and conventions and assemblies and in their literature. You can ask any JW, passed or present, and they will confirm this.


    This is the same organization that produces HIGHLY propagandized cartoons for JW children in which one of the cartoons guilts little children to put their ice cream money into the contribution boxes at the Kingdom Halls. Let that sink in. The Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses uses cartoons to guilt children into putting their allowances into the contribution boxes at their places of worship. The Kaleb and Sophia cartoon:

    This cult expertly uses fear and guilt to manipulate and micromanage their members into doing insane things that are not for their benefit and more importantly, are highly detrimental to their children.'

    It has been many years since I stopped attending JW meetings. When I had stopped attending meetings (other than memorial meetings prior to the year 2007 or so) the religion was not nearly as bad as described in the above article. If the ex-JW quoted in the above article is correct in her claims then in many ways the religion is now horrible and embracing part of the lousy message I quoted above from the Children book. Yikes!

  • minimus

    Dis, it seems to me that you are seeing the light! Hopefully you do not vacillate. The Watchtower is and has always been wrong. Their record stands for itself.

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    In my post in which I quoted the Children book I neglected to actually quote what the book said about college and other higher education.

    Ch. 1 of the book in talking about the fictional characters (before they learn of the WT books) regarding their education says: "John Alden had reached the age of sixteen years. Eunice Rogers was fourteen years of age. Both had completed the study course in the country public school. They must receive further education. John was sent away to college. Eunice entered a seminary for young ladies. A four-year course of study had been planned for each one of them." That is interesting that they are said to go to advanced schooling at such young ages. Later in the chapter the book describes the characters experience of their higher learning and portrays it in a negative light (at least from the JW point of view).

    Note it says the following.

    "Eunice, ... For four years you have been closely associated with those who are given over to the lighter things of life. We both can well bear testimony to the fact that the schools for both men and women instill into the mind of the pupil the theory of evolution of the human race, substituting that tradition proclaimed by such men as Darwin for the sure Word of Almighty God. You have withstood that seductive influence and have disregarded the sneers and reproaches that have fallen upon you and to which all persons who manifest their belief in the inspired Scriptures are subjected. I noted at the study this morning that you still firmly hold to the early teachings we have received from our parents in our homes. You have withstood the influence


    of the modern educators, who would turn young men and young women away from the early instruction of their parents. Truly, then, you have been and are 'Blessed with victory'.


    You have told me that you were required to attend religious service while at the seminary; that the congregational meetings, and the Sunday morning service in particular, were a dress parade having the earmarks of a social gathering; that the minister seldom mentioned the Bible and never made any attempt to explain it, but talked chiefly of evolution, politics and social problems, quoting liberally from books of worldly writers, and that the entire tendency was to discredit the Bible. Well do I understand and appreciate what you have told me. A like condition exists at all colleges, I believe. Such were the conditions at the college where I have been attending for the past four years. Almost all of the professors, including the ecclesiastical instructors, are higher critics and rely on science and the wisdom of men to lead them to higher things, but I observe that they do not reach great heights."


    "Yes, John, often have I propounded to myself the question: Why should a man call himself a minister or a doctor of divinity, claiming to be a servant of God, and never attempting even to instruct the people as to the meaning of the Scriptures? Probably it is because he does not understand the Scriptures himself; but he should not pretend to teach them. The minister at the seminary appeared to be quite popular with almost all who attended his church meetings, and the attendants of his social gatherings spoke many flattering words about him and to him; but I must say that often I have felt so out of place at those so-called 'church services and social gatherings' that I have wanted to run away that I might be alone and meditate upon what our parents have taught us in our homes. From what I have learned it appears that the seminaries and colleges have practically forgotten God, and this includes the ministers and theological teachers. As a result of such teaching almost all of the students have become agnostics or infidels."

    Later the character John introduces Eunice to Rutherford's book (it appears that the Children book quotes from Rutherford's books extensively and there is an illustration of the two adults reading them). The Children book says the following.

    "I would like to devote some of the time during the months that immediately follow to our studies together. I have come into possession of a number of books, all published by the same publishing society, which claim to be of great aid in the study of the Bible. We have both studied the Bible some, but

    there is much for us to learn."

    Chapter 2 says the following.

    'In these latter days the colleges teach evolution concerning man, his creation, and his development, and ignore entirely the Word of God. They are wise in their own conceits, and concerning such the Lord in his Word says: "He taketh the wise in their own craft-


    iness; and the counsel of the froward is carried headlong. They meet with darkness in the daytime, and grope in the noonday as in the night." (Job 5:13,14) "The wise men are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken; lo, they have rejected the word of the Lord; and what wisdom is in them?" — Jeremiah 8:9."These scriptures, written long ago, certainly and accurately describe the conditions that exist in the colleges today," said John to Eunice. "There is scarcely a professor in the college where I attended that has any faith whatsoever in God and the Bible. They teach all the young men and young women to ignore God and the Bible. Recently I noticed in the Literary Digest that a poll had been taken of the preachers in the United States and a large majority of them are evolutionists, deny the inspiration of the Scriptures, and yet claim to be ministers of the gospel."

    "Certainly, John," said Eunice. "This proves how wonderfully we have been favored by the Lord in giving us parents who have taught us from our youth up to have confidence in God and in the Bible, which is His Word. Without faith it is impossible to please God, as it is written in the Scriptures."

    "That is true, Eunice, and you are a woman of true and genuine faith. Seeing


    that the professors and other teachers in the schools have ignored the Bible and teach that man is a creature of evolution, I suggest that in our next study we give consideration to the Bible teaching concerning the origin of man and the course that men have taken, and learn just why the present miserable conditions exist amongst the peoples and nations of the earth." 'Chapter 9 says the following.

    'Generally those of the world who are parents desire to provide their children with a college education and a training in religion, commerce, and politics, with the ability to make money and shine in the world. Good that is enduring does not result from such worldly teaching. It is of far greater importance to the child to teach it God's Word, that it may gain knowledge, wisdom and understanding, which lead to endless blessings: "How much better is it to get wisdom than gold! and to get understanding rather to be chosen than silver!" (Proverbs 16:16) "Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold. For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it." — Proverbs 8:10,11. He who follows the course of religion, politics and commerce usually ends his career in sorrow.'

    Chapter 10 says the following.

    'Satan knows that his time is short, and therefore he is desperately trying to turn all persons, including the children, against God. (Revelation 12:12,17) Therefore Satan influences public officials and others to compel little children to indulge in idolatrous practices by bowing down to some image or thing, such as saluting flags and hailing men, and which is in direct violation of God's commandment. (Exodus 20:1-5) That is why in the last few years rules are made and enforced in the public schools compelling children of the Jonadabs, who are in a covenant to do God's will, to indulge in the idolatrous practice of flag-saluting and hailing men. It is the influence of that subtle foe, the Devil, that has brought about this state of affairs, and now Satan's agents cause great persecution to be brought upon the parents and the children who insist on obeying the commandments of God.'

  • minimus

    Dis, you are too wordy. You should get on a Bible’s Students site that despise Jfr. They will love your rereading of the Rutherfraud literature.

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    Hey minimus no one is forcing you to read my long posts. You don't have to read them if you don't want to. If you want brevity read an article in the most recent Awake! issue. Ha ha.

    I believe in being thorough. As a result I quoted all of the sections in the book that I considered relevant to claim of the anti-higher education message in the book (which is really not many sections). This topic thread is about remembering Rutherford, and for me the best reliable way to learn about Rutherford and draw attention to him is by reading his literature, analyzing it, and then quoting the literature. I no more than very little interest in hearsay claims about Rutherford. As Thomas Paine pointed out his book "The Age of Reason" hearsay testimony is very unreliable (or at least not provable). Also it is not admissible as evidence in the court of law in the USA, though a tribunal might accept it.

    The thing is, a number of the quotes are true (or at least mostly true) about college, such as certain classes teaching evolution as a fact. But hey, evolution really is a fact. Likewise some of the claims about what is taught in theological seminaries (but not the fundamentalist ones) are true, about the ministers stating disbelief in parts of the Bible. That is because much of the Bible has been shown by scholars to not be literally true. But Rutherford tries to make it seem that the claims made by professors about evolution and the seminary ministers claims about the parts of the Bible are false when in fact they are true (except that Rutherford twists some of the professors claims about evolution and some of seminary ministers claims about the Bible).

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