Hailstone message AND everyone will be saved? Questions

by slimboyfat 144 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Mikejw

  There have been a number of cases where a JW has murdered close relatives.

  This maybe part of the reason to bring in new light that your unbelieving loved ones don’t need to die beforehand.

  We all know good people who for whatever reason will never become JWs. The question is this……

  If they are alive at Armageddon then would they have less chance of being in paradise than if they died beforehand? Brother Jackson says no less chance, but Notsure says they have less chance if still alive at Armageddon

  There is a definite contradiction with this new light on the one hand if you interpret it as Notsure does, then it is still better for unbelievers to die beforehand to get into paradise.

  But on the other hand the new light very clearly says when a person dies doesn’t make a difference to getting into paradise.

  Either it does or it doesn’t.

  They cant have it both ways.

  If lots of people ask their elders and COs this very simple question-

  Brother Elder I’m confused about this new light. I have unbelieving loved ones who I want to be in paradise. They will never ever change and respond towards jehovah but they are such good people. If they died before they would get a resurrection but do they have less chance of being in paradise if they were still alive at Armageddon or the same chance as Brother Jackson says?
• 

  notsurewheretogo

  There have been a number of cases where a JW has murdered close relatives. There seems little doubt that the perpetrator was mentally unstable, but even so the thought that he was saving them from eternal destruction (as they would get a resurrection) apparently played a part in some such cases.

  Yup I can see this been a factor in why they have changed. Mentally unstable dub thinks "shit gotta kill my family before Armageddon as that is the only way my family will get into paradise".

  Now elder dub can tell crazy dub that the crazy dubs unbelieving family may still be saved if they turn to Jehoover during the Great tribulation so put your gun away crazy dub!

  Crazy shit right?
  
  
• 

  slimboyfat

  Thanks Earnest, that’s what I thought the teaching was. I take it that’s what Russell also taught, and only changed in the 1930s when the new teaching of the “great crowd” was developed. I think the old teaching is closer to the Christadelphian understanding of Armageddon. I wonder if the Society will move closer to that view.
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  Mikejw

  It is an indisputable fact that they have moved closer to that idea with the new light.

  the question how close are they to Billions will survive Armageddon

  I think the official answer is we can’t be dogmatic we just don’t know, but we can trust the merciful judge of all the earth to do the right thing

  so yes Slim they have once again moved closer to the Christadelphian model, and the possibility is there that billions now living will never die
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  TonusOH

  They are probably trying to leave it at least somewhat vague in order to give themselves room to adjust it as time goes on. If they feel that too many people are relaxing, or too many are feeling anxious over it, they can offer more 'clarification.'

  The Bible is difficult enough to figure out even when you're just trying to read it and follow what it is saying. When you are also trying to get it to fit a particular doctrine, it gets even messier. And that's saying something. At some point "we just don't know" should become the basis of all of their teaching.
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  Earnest

  slimboyfat : I take it that’s what Russell also taught [about the Sheep and the Goats]

  No, not quite. In Pastor Russell's Sermons on The Judgment Day Pictured by Jesus (p.224) he applies the parable of the Sheep and Goats to those resurrected in the Millenial Reign :

  Our text [Matthew 25:40] refers, not to Christians, but to Gentiles—the world in general. Before Messiahʹs Throne shall be gathered all people, all nations…The whole picture refers to the thousand years of the Messianic Reign, the worldʹs judgment, the worldʹs trial.

  At the beginning of the article on The Parable of the Sheep and the Goats in the October 15, 1923 Watchtower, Rutherford discusses what was previously understood :

  Heretofore we have applied the parable to the Millennial reign of Christ, and the final judgment of the parable to the end of that reign. Such interpretation has been difficult to harmonize. If we find objections to its application during the Millennial age, and if we find the physical facts now known to us to fit the word picture, we would be justified in concluding that we might not have heretofore had the proper interpretation.

  With no disposition to criticize what has heretofore been written, we believe it profitable to consider whether or not our former application has been the right one. There seems to be a number of legitimate reasons why the parable will not be applicable at the final judgment of the Millennial reign of Christ.

  So there were two changes in the understanding of the Sheep and the Goats. One in 1923 with the Millions Now Living Will Never Die teaching, and the other in the in the 1930s when the new teaching of the “great crowd” was developed.
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  Mikejw

  Most JWs have completely missed the largest change in recent JW history, I don’t think they have grasped the difference between the old light and new light. Yes the new light that if you die beforehand or are alive during Armageddon you have the same chance of being in paradise.
  

  It’s all very well saying we can’t be dogmatic and we just don’t know. But they do seem to be dogmatic that everyone who ever died will be resurrected unless really bad and now there is the same chance if alive during Armageddon
• 

  Vidiot

  TonusOH - “…They are probably trying to leave it at least somewhat vague in order to give themselves room to adjust it as time goes on…”

  This.
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  Mikejw

  Somewhat vague about having the same chance no matter when you die or are still alive yes, but don’t wish your unbelieving loved ones die beforehand because if they are alive they have the same chance. And when you think they are not vague about everyone being resurrected unless really bad. And they are not vague about how silly it is to wish your loved ones die beforehand so they have a better chance. So they are not vague about that.

  All they are vague about is WHO IS REALLY READY BAD AND WONT GET A RESURRECTION OR WILL BE KILLED AT ARMAGEDDON

  Or to put it another way, if unbelievers are not as likely to survive as those those who have died are likely to be resurrected, then people might as well go back to hoping their relatives die before Armageddon again
  
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  Vidiot

  Jeezus, at this rate of change, WT theology in ten years will consist of basically…

  …”Meh”.

  😏