Nah dude I've been here for years and POMO!
Hailstone message AND everyone will be saved? Questions
by slimboyfat 144 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Vidiot
Yup.
There’s a difference between objective critical analysis and apologetics.
Learning how to differentiate between the two is a useful skill for XJWs.
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LV101
A thousand 'Likes' Scully.
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Mikejw
We all know good people who just want to live a good life but don’t want anything to do with JWs.
They would be better off dying beforehand? They are so set in their ways they are not going to change or ‘respond favourably’ upto and during Armageddon? Going by this they would be better off dying beforehand.
But the contradiction is they told us we don’t have to wish these ones would die beforehand but the same time they indicated it would be better for them to die before?
Either Jehovah is fair and just or he will slaughter many many good people who for whatever reason did not respond favourably as they put it.
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slimboyfat
Okay this is all rather confusing, perhaps because the Watchtower itself doesn’t make sense.
I guess you could flip it on its head and say that another way non believers could be treated the same whether they die before Armageddon or not is to reduce drastically the number of people JWs anticipate will be resurrected. That would make it equal, but it’s hardly a reason for JWs to stop worrying about non believing relatives, because it would reduce their chances of surviving all round.
Notsure, can you explain, if the change isn’t that non believers will survive Armageddon comparable to how non believers in general will be resurrected -
Then can you succinctly explain what do you think is the change?
Incidentally, not all millenarian groups anticipate that all wicked people will die at Armageddon. As I understand it, Christadelphians think the judgment will take place during the thousand year reign, not before. Armageddon is a great battle where Jesus establishes his kingdom on earth, it’s not particularly a time of judgement for the wicked. Although people will die in Armageddon, they don’t expect the wicked to be completely destroyed at Armageddon because the judgment comes later during the thousand years. Could Watchtower be moving to that kind of model?
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Mikejw
Yes that’s the impression I got Slimboyfat.
If unbelievers die before or not they have the same chance to get into the 1000yr reign as long as they are not really really bad. And you would have to be extremely bad as even sodomites ect may not be bad enough to get the same chance.
Then the 1000yr reign will be the time when everyone really gets judged to see if they get everlasting life, and they have to pass the final test when the dragon is let out of the abyss for a short time.
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notsurewheretogo
Notsure, can you explain, if the change isn’t that non believers will survive Armageddon comparable to how non believers in general will be resurrected -
Then can you succinctly explain what do you think is the change?I thought I have done this many times?
Non believers will not survive Armageddon period. Jehovah will judge everyone at Armageddon and if you are not a follower you are executed. Nothing changes there.
Non believers get a resurrection if they die before Armageddon (unless really bad or opposer of Jehovah). Again no change there.
The change is simple. They taught, the old light you HAD to be a baptised JW to be saved at Armageddon if you were still alive. As soon as the Great Tribulation started that was it. This old doctrine resulted in JW's wishing their unbelieving family members to die (not at the hands of Jehovah) prior to Armageddon ensuring they would be one of the unrighteous resurrected.
The new light is your unbelieving family members do not need to die before Armageddon to be saved IF they react favourably and turn to Jehovah during the Great Tribulation. Even though the GT has started it is not too late for your unbelieving family members to become believers during the GT and survive Armageddon.
Thus your unbelieving family members now have two routes to paradise. Die before Armageddon as previously OR now react during the Great Tribulation and become a believer and the new light is Jehovah may save them.
Jehovah will still judge and execute all unbelievers who refused the message and do not react to the events of the Great Tribulation and turn to Jehovah. All slain at Armageddon get no resurrection.
That's the change.
If unbelievers die before or not they have the same chance to get into the 1000yr reign as long as they are not really really bad.
No this is NOT true. See above, it is simply they have another chance and that chance is they respond to the Great Tribulation and become believers BEFORE Armageddon.
Unbelievers only chance to survive Armageddon is to die before it starts or respond to events of the Great Tribulation and become a believer...if they do not respond to the events of the GT they are executed as a goat.
NOTHING has changed in the context of Jehovah executing all unbelievers at Armageddon so this billions have the same chance at Armageddon as they would dying prior to Armageddon is not what the article states.
At Armageddon only JW's and those who react to the events of the GT get through. Then there is the resurrection of all unrighteous who died prior to Armageddon (and the slain billions at Armageddon are not in this group who are resurrected as all executed by Jehovah is a final judgement) THEN there is the final judgment at the end of the 1000 year reign.
The new light and article does not change any of this bar the bit about those reacting to GT events after the GT starts and they may get saved through Armageddon.
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notsurewheretogo
The change in one sentence is:
"JW's used to believe you had to be a baptised JW to be saved at Armageddon, now JW's believe baptised JW's and some who react favourably during the Great Tribulation may get saved meaning exJW's, or family members of JW' etc no longer HAVE to die prior to Armageddon to ensure they are in paradise as they now can react to the events of the Great Tribulation favourably and be saved".
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Mikejw
As we have pointed out notsure they seem to be speaking out of two sides of their mouths. Your interpretation is one way of looking at the new light. But it doesn’t fit in with the fact that they say when you die makes no difference.
We have been round and round looking at different interpretations of the new light. They contradict each other the two ways of looking at this new light.
It will probably change again before next AGM anyway
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Vidiot
Maybe they phrased it the way they did on purpose to leave enough wiggle room for either possibility.
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