Atheism = self defeating.

by towerwatchman 315 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • towerwatchman
    towerwatchman

    To Finklestien

    Well you stated that the the universe was caused by an intelligent designer, I showed you information that put critical evaluation to that posed statement.

    I
    must have missed it. Please re-post.

    Another thing to think about is that are own sun (star) which makes life possible on are planet will burn out like all other stars in the future, leaving this planet uninhabitable, so does it make logical sense that an intelligent creator would create things which his other creations would eventually destroy out of existence ?

    That is true, it follows the second law of thermodynamics. But again why would some possible dooms day scenario that may or may not happen equate to the non existence of God. Again if an all powerful God that created all is in the equation why should I fear a sun burning out if He is present.

  • Anony Mous
    Anony Mous

    @towerwatchman: Give us empirical proof of any deity and you'll be golden.

    Atheists are simply people that accept that no such empirical proof exists. We *know* for a fact that a deity you describe (all-powerful) is logically impossible and since our universe is based on this logic, there is no room for such entity.

    In life, you cannot make the assumption that something outlandish exists (such as a deity) when a simpler explanation will do (such as natural causes) because that sort of logic fits anywhere.

    So why should you learn anything new? Why should you worry about dying or eating or having a job? Or a cure for cancer? If you have no fear of the afterlife, why don't you hasten the end yourself?

    The sun burning out is not a 'possible' that may or may not happen. We know it will happen, we can see it happening to our own Sun and we see the results everywhere else in the universe.

  • towerwatchman
    towerwatchman

    To Anony Mous

    In this thread I am not arguing for any specific deity but Intelligent Design at most. So please address the topic below.

    What kind of information does DNA have? What kind of information must the origin of life researcher ‘explain the origin of’? Webster defines information as ‘the attribute inherent in and communicated by alternative sequences or arrangements of something that produces specific effects.’ A block of binary code in a software program is information. DNA contains alternative sequences of nucleotide bases that produce a specific effect; therefore DNA contains information. DNA sequences are improbable and specifically arranged to perform, this is functional information similar to CAD – CAM. Now the question becomes not what is the origin of life but the origin of biological information. Where did the information to build the first living organism come from? Let’s bring cause and effect. If an effect has only one known cause then the presence of the effect is enough to support the presence of the cause. The only known cause of information is intelligence.

  • Saethydd
    Saethydd

    Now the question becomes not what is the origin of life but the origin of biological information. Where did the information to build the first living organism come from?

    Valid question, the problem is you think you already have the answer. My answer is that we don't know... yet, but we have developed a number of plausible theories almost none of which would necessarily contradict each other. Here is a link if you actually care to learn about the leading theories.

    You see, a scientist can't just invoke God because something seems to have no other explanation. If they did that, then we would still be woefully ignorant about... everything in the natural world. So many things that have been attributed to being directly controlled by God (Or depending on the time and culture gods, demons, ghosts, tree spirits etc.) have been shown to have natural explanations. That will very probably be the case with this issue as well.

    Now if you want to keep shoving God back into the gaps of scientific knowledge feel free to do so, but you should know that in that case, your God is nothing more than an ever receding front being pushed backward farther and farther every year, and it's gonna take a lot more than a vague appeal to incredulity to stop that.

  • Anony Mous
    Anony Mous

    @Towerwatchman: I'd suggest you stick to your domain of knowledge.

    You are wrong in assuming that the only way of creating information is by intelligence, as a matter of fact, no new information has ever been created by an intelligent being. The net information in the Universe is zero - nothing - our Universe exists without any source of information or any producer of particles.

    To your point about biology: All living things communicate and reproduce using some form of information and we don't consider trees or frogs intelligent. Now, if frogs and trees can reproduce all by themselves without requiring any intelligence, why is it so hard to understand that cells can reproduce without intervention using DNA - you seem to accept that? Or that RNA can reproduce by itself - since you accept DNA (from single-cell bacteria to whales) reproduces, you have to accept RNA (viruses) are also able to reproduce without divine intervention? And since it's been proven and you accept ribonucleotides to structure and thus form RNA and "reproduce" without any divine intervention, we have gotten to the end of the 'chain' without yet requiring an explanation.

    This is where biology ends and chemistry begins. You probably have no problem accepting sugars and crystals forming without divine intervention right, you can see it happening in nature, when it snows. Or that certain chemical elements can form without divine intervention, you know being created in stars and in the earth's crust or when heated or exposed (rust) - there is no god required to make your car rust right? So where exactly do you need to insert a divine intervention (intelligent design) for life when all parts of "life" are clearly done all the time in nature without it?

    Talking about information: Everything in this Universe is information and knowing the states of all *things* in any Universe (being omniscient) is explicitly prohibited, because it would break causality - think about that - anything (such as an Intelligent Designer) that can create a Universe would inherently destroy it by it's own rules (at least from it's point of reference). And that's being overly simplistic about it.

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    Towerwatchman is a troll plain and simple he defers logic and reason because it doesn't fit and support his grand creating god of choice

    Basically he's just trolling the Net with only one specific intent in mind.

     photo Dont-Feed-the-Trolls.png

  • towerwatchman
    towerwatchman

    To Saethydd

    Valid question, the problem is you think you already have the answer. My answer is that we don't know... yet, but we have developed a number of plausible theories almost none of which would necessarily contradict each other. Here is a link if you actually care to learn about the leading theories.
    You see, a scientist can't just invoke God because something seems to have no other explanation. If they did that, then we would still be woefully ignorant about... everything in the natural world. So many things that have been attributed to being directly controlled by God (Or depending on the time and culture gods, demons, ghosts, tree spirits etc.) have been shown to have natural explanations. That will very probably be the case with this issue as well.
    Now if you want to keep shoving God back into the gaps of scientific knowledge feel free to do so, but you should know that in that case, your God is nothing more than an ever receding front being pushed backward farther and farther every year, and it's gonna take a lot more than a vague appeal to incredulity to stop that.

    Darwin read “Principles of Geology” by Charles Lyell, whose central methodological principle was. ‘To explain the former changes of the earth’s surface, by reference to causes now in operation.’ According to Lyell, our present experience of cause and effect should guide our reasoning about the causes of past events. Lyell argued that when historical scientist are seeking to explain events in the past, they should not invoke unknown or exotic causes, the effects of which we do not know, instead, they should cite causes that are known from our uniform experience to have the power to produce the effect in question.

    I am using the same methodological principle that is being used by the Evolutionist. Why am I being denied the same privilege?

    In “Reconstructing the Past” – Elliot Sober stated that if historical scientist can discover an effect for which there is only one know cause, when the effect is discovered the action of the cause can be inferred great confidence. Sober’s suggests that if scientists can discover an effect for which there is only one plausible cause, they can infer the presence or action of that cause in the past with great confidence.

    X is necessary to the occurrence of Y = Y exist + Therefore, X existed.

    This argument is logically and valid. A past cause or event can be established from an affect alone.

    Scribes are the only known cause of linguistic inscriptions; therefore any tablets containing ancient script can infer scribal activity. Wide spread of volcanic ash will infer a past eruption. Where a particular past cause is known to be necessary to produce a subsequent effect, the occurrence of ‘the effect is taken as sufficient to establish the occurrence of the cause.” The only known cause of information is intelligence.

  • towerwatchman
    towerwatchman

    To Anony Mous

    You are wrong in assuming that the only way of creating information is by intelligence,

    Darwin read “Principles of Geology” by Charles Lyell, whose central methodological principle was. ‘To explain the former changes of the earth’s surface, by reference to causes now in operation.’ According to Lyell, our present experience of cause and effect should guide our reasoning about the causes of past events. Lyell argued that when historical scientist are seeking to explain events in the past, they should not invoke unknown or exotic causes, the effects of which we do not know, instead, they should cite causes that are known from our uniform experience to have the power to produce the effect in question.

    I am using the same methodological principle that is being used by the Evolutionist. Why am I being denied the same privilege?

    In “Reconstructing the Past” – Elliot Sober stated that if historical scientist can discover an effect for which there is only one know cause, when the effect is discovered the action of the cause can be inferred with great confidence. Sober’s suggests that if scientists can discover an effect for which there is only one plausible cause, they can infer the presence or action of that cause in the past with great confidence.

    X is necessary to the occurrence of Y = Y exist + Therefore, X existed.

    This argument is logically and valid. A past cause or event can be established from an affect alone.

    Scribes are the only known cause of linguistic inscriptions; therefore any tablets containing ancient script can infer scribal activity. Wide spread of volcanic ash will infer a past eruption. Where a particular past cause is known to be necessary to produce a subsequent effect, the occurrence of ‘the effect is taken as sufficient to establish the occurrence of the cause.” The only known cause of information is intelligence.

    as a matter of fact, no new information has ever been created by an intelligent being. The net information in the Universe is zero - nothing - our Universe exists without any source of information or any producer of particles.

    Webster defines information as ‘the attribute inherent in and communicated by alternative sequences or arrangements of something that produces specific effects.’ A block of binary code in a software program is information. DNA contains alternative sequences of nucleotide bases that produce a specific effect; therefore DNA contains information. DNA sequences are improbable and specifically arranged to perform, this is functional information similar to CAD – CAM.

    To your point about biology: All living things communicate and reproduce using some form of information and we don't consider trees or frogs intelligent. Now, if frogs and trees can reproduce all by themselves without requiring any intelligence, why is it so hard to understand that cells can reproduce without intervention using DNA - you seem to accept that? Or that RNA can reproduce by itself - since you accept DNA (from single-cell bacteria to whales) reproduces, you have to accept RNA (viruses) are also able to reproduce without divine intervention? And since it's been proven and you accept ribonucleotides to structure and thus form RNA and "reproduce" without any divine intervention, we have gotten to the end of the 'chain' without yet requiring an explanation.

    Note I am discussing the origin of the information not the ability to reproduce it.

    This is where biology ends and chemistry begins. You probably have no problem accepting sugars and crystals forming without divine intervention right, you can see it happening in nature, when it snows. Or that certain chemical elements can form without divine intervention, you know being created in stars and in the earth's crust or when heated or exposed (rust) - there is no god required to make your car rust right? So where exactly do you need to insert a divine intervention (intelligent design) for life when all parts of "life" are clearly done all the time in nature without it?

    Order {Redundancy} = ABCABCABCABC = NaCl NaCl NaCl NaCl [ Salt crystal]

    HHOHHOHHOHHOHHO [snow flake]

    {Mere} complexity. = alzntzxbct = random polypeptide or polymers

    {Specified] Complexity = To be or not to be. = Functional DNA and proteins. [specified and complex information that performs a function].

    Note the only molecules that are found anywhere in nature that exhibit such specified complexity and information is the gene expression system and the cell’s machinery. Everything else is redundant order or mere complexity. Living organisms are distinguished by their specified complexity. Crystals fail to qualify as living because they lack complexity.

  • Anony Mous
    Anony Mous

    Again, you have no idea what you're talking about.

    You quote: "they should not invoke unknown or exotic causes" and then ask why you're not allowed to use the same argument to propose a divine entity. Divine intervention is exactly the definition of "unknown or exotic causes".

    We know pretty well how life started and developed and between the 1950's have replicated various requirements of it in the lab without requiring unknown or exotic causes. Yes, we can create all the prerequisites for life (including self-replicating enzymes, the components of DNA) in the lab, when exactly life forms or chemical components become "life" is a difficult question and given recent developments I am pretty sure we will be able to make start developing single cell organisms in the next few decades. We even have a pretty good model of how the Universe started - at no point does any of it require divine intervention, it's just stuff that happens all the time in the Universe.

    And if you think salts and snow flakes aren't complex, again, you have no idea.

  • Caedes
    Caedes

    Atheism is not a statement that there is no god, it is a statement that no theist has provided empirical evidence of a god or gods.

    Since your definition is flawed then so is the rest of your OP.

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