'You didn't fire a warning shot soon enough!'

by William Penwell 148 Replies latest jw friends

  • Sentinel

    I just finished reading the account on the Washington Post website. The explitive was not "printed" out. Whatever.

    I find it highly unususal that a vehicle loaded with Iraqi's of any gender wouldn't obey signs in their language that said "Warning, you must STOP". Surely they knew they were at a check point. With all that's going on, I don't blame their deaths on our guys--even if a "warning shot" wasn't made. The signs are the warning! This is just the tragedy of war. Sure they were killed, women and children. They are to blame because they didn't STOP. What did they think was going to happen? Sometimes, I truly believe they actually "want" to be killed, so they will receive their "heavenly reward" and it will all be over. Why should our guys take on the added guilt for something like this? Of course they aren't intentionally slaughtering innocents. Makes me wonder about the news people and what slant they put on things.

    The next thing our guys over there will be dealing with is the increasing heat and lack of sanitary water. The Iraqi's are already beginning to use contaminated water themselves, which will lead to major health issues. I keep hoping that if our troops can get Bagdad, then Saddam will have to recognize that he is defeated. But, I think that is wishing thinking, because he simply believes we are the enemy and that to die for "him" is the same as dying for "god". How can we fight against craziness like that?

    And what is this about men from other nearby countries, coming in to give the Iraqi's a hand against us?

  • ashitaka
    They are to blame because they didn't STOP.

    Ever miss a sign on the highway and get confused? Be so frightened that you made a dumb decision driving? I have.

    These people are in a country that is being blown up from the ground-up, and in fear they probably tried to get the hell out of the country. I think it's a real shame.


  • detective

    Speaking of embellishment... [quote]Meanwhile it has emerged - as a result of detective work on the internet by a Guardian reader - that the explosion in a Baghdad market which killed more than 60 people last Friday was indeed caused by a cruise missile and not an Iraqi anti-aircraft rocket as the US has suggested.[/quote] Huh? Are you kidding me? "Detective work on the internet"? Number one, I am ~not~ the Detective in the aforementioned paragraph. And, if I were, I'd encourage you NOT to believe my detective work... as searching the INTERNET to get "facts" on a real-life warzone incident less than a week after the fact an ~extremely~ questionable resource at best! Because, we all know how reliable the internet can be... sheesh! That fool is giving me a bad name!

  • ThiChi

    I regret that this incident is yet another example of how events are taken out of context to further your debatable viewpoints. The fact is the Van did not stop, after repeated attempts to make them.

    ""Central Command said initial reports indicated the soldiers followed the rules of engagement to protect themselves.

    "In light of recent terrorist attacks by the Iraqi regime, the soldiers exercised considerable restraint to avoid the unnecessary loss of life," the statement said.

    Navy Capt. Frank Thorp, a U.S. Central Command spokesman in Doha, blamed the deaths on the Iraqi regime's guerrilla tactics and its practice of using women and children as shields.

    "The most horrendous thing about this is that this is the result of what is apparently the strategy of the regime to challenge us at checkpoints, which has caused us to be on our toes and ensure that these are not suicide bombers," he said. "So the blood of this incident is on the regime of Saddam Hussein."

    The shooting is likely to stoke opposition to the U.S.-led invasion among Iraqis in the Shiite Muslim region, where Washington had hoped for a popular uprising against Saddam and his Sunni Muslim regime. Instead, U.S. forces have faced stubborn resistance by Saddam's forces in Najaf and other southern Shiite strongholds.

    According to an account by the Central Command, the van approached the Army checkpoint Monday afternoon. Soldiers motioned for the driver to stop but were ignored. They then fired warning shots but the vehicle kept moving toward the checkpoint. Troops then shot into its engine. As a last resort, the military said, soldiers fired into the passenger compartment.

    Two other civilians were wounded, according to the U.S. military, which said it is investigating the incident.""

    Most Civilian Deaths Due to Iraq's Human Shields

    Tuesday, April 01, 2003

    CAMP AS SAYLIYAH, Qatar —— Despite the killing of seven Iraqi civilians by U.S. troops at a checkpoint, a U.S. general said Tuesday that Iraqis were helping coalition forces target Saddam Hussein's army.

    Brig. Gen. Vincent Brooks described several instances in which local residents had helped U.S. forces throughout the country, paving the way for successful attacks against "death squads" loyal to Saddam.

    In one case north of the south-central Iraqi town of Nasiriyah, 100 local tribesmen joined U.S. soldiers in capturing Iraqi military prisoners and removing explosives from a bridge, he said.

    In the western desert, Brooks said residents of a town led U.S. troops to a hospital where weapons, munitions and gas masks were found. He said the residents carried the cache into the desert where it was blown up.

    At a briefing dominated by questions about the shooting of civilians by U.S. soldiers at a checkpoint on Monday, Brooks said the incident was under investigation.

    He said U.S. forces were in a state of heightened alert after a suicide attack on Saturday that killed four Americans.

    "In all cases in checkpoints and otherwise we maintain the right to self-defense," Brooks said. "We've increased vigilance because of the tactics of Iraqi death squads.

    "While we regret the loss of civilian lives, they remain unavoidable," he said.

    Brooks blamed the Iraqi regime for using civilians as human shields and punishing those who seem to favor coalition forces. But he acknowledged he didn't know whether the passengers in the checkpoint shooting were being used as human shields and conceded they may have been fleeing Najaf in fear.

    "I certainly can't presuppose what decisions were being made or what decisions were made by the people in that vehicle," he said. But he added that Iraqis have been receiving constant instructions by coalition radio and television programs about not approaching troops.

    Iraqi fighters have shot women in the back on bridges, put babies in the line of fire and hanged one woman who simply waved to coalition forces, he said.

    "The blood is on the hands of the regime. If there's a question of morality, it really should go back to the regime," he said. "These are women and children and they're on the battlefield."

    He said that despite the threats by the Iraqi regime on its own population, "people are bold and they're becoming bolder."

    Brooks listed battlefield successes of the previous 24 hours. These included:

    -- The capture by U.S. forces of an Iraqi general who was providing important information about Iraq's battlefield tactics. He refused to identify the general or say where he was captured.

    -- The destruction by British forces near the southern city of Basra of a "considerable" number of Iraqi tanks and personnel carriers.

    -- The rescue by British troops of two Kenyan truck drivers who had been held by Iraqis since last week. The men had been drivers for a Saudi-owned, Kuwait-based company contracted by U.S. and British coalition forces.


  • ThiChi

    Civilians 'Increasingly Willing' to Support Allies in South

    Tuesday, April 01, 2003

    CAMP AS SAYLIYAH, Qatar — British forces said they saw signs Tuesday that the tide of the war in southern Iraq may be turning in their favor: Iraqis were starting to warm to their presence in towns firmly under their control, where troops felt safe enough to replace helmets with berets.

    Lights flickered on for the first time in months in the port city of Umm Qasr, and schools and shops were reopening. Significantly, more civilians were informing foreign troops about the whereabouts of paramilitary forces and members of Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein's Baath Party, British officials said.

    "Within the southern area of Iraq, we see a large degree of normality starting to appear amongst the Iraqi population," said Group Capt. Al Lockwood, a spokesman for British forces in the Gulf.

    Around Nasiriyah, where the coalition has met with stiff resistance, civilians are now helping U.S. special forces find troops loyal to Saddam, Brig. Gen. Vincent Brooks told reporters Tuesday at a news conference in Kuwait.

    Brooks said local Iraqis are "increasingly willing" to aid the U.S. and British forces throughout the main areas of fighting.

    Marines were aided by 100 tribal fighters who helped fight Iraqi forces and remove explosives from a bridge north of Nasiriyah. In the western desert, civilians helped Army troops remove explosives from a hospital and check buildings, he added.

    Lockwood stressed that tensions were still high in Basra, Iraq's second-largest city where British forces have skirmished almost daily with forces loyal to Saddam while trying to provide humanitarian aid to the city's 1.3 million people.

    And military operations continued in the region, including a raid on Baath party members in the town of Safwan, said another British spokesman, Col. Chris Vernon.

    But Lockwood said residents were increasingly willing to approach British troops who have ringed Basra to give information about known paramilitaries and other loyalists.

    "They realize that we are there to liberate them, not to occupy," he said. "Certainly, there are still military engagements happening with the paramilitary forces, but the aid is flowing into Basra now."

    The British appear confident that they have reached some level of security in four southern towns. On Tuesday, British troops had changed their combat helmets for berets in Umm Qasr, As Zubayr, Rumeila and Safwan, British officials said.

    Lockwood said the berets makes the soldiers appear more friendly and approachable, and serve as a confidence-building measure on both sides.

    "It shows that we have confidence in them, and they can have confidence in us," he said.

    In addition, more humanitarian aid was flowing into the region, including from the United Nations and other aid organizations, he said.

    U.S. and British officials have acknowledged the expected uprising by anti-Saddam Shiite residents of Basra and other southern towns in support of coalition troops hasn't borne out to any large degree.

    They have attributed the residents' wariness to the fact that when Shiites did rise up in 1991, allied forces largely abandoned them and left them to be punished or killed by the Iraqi leadership.

    "They have suffered tragically, enormously under the Saddam Hussein regime," Lockwood said. "And although it's taken some time because of the events of 1991, they're beginning to gain the confidence now, they know we're not going away. They know we will be there to protect them."

  • amac

    Thi Chi, I don't think this has been taken out of context. No one seems to be blaming the US troops for taking a defensive action. The facts are that young children and civilians are dying everyday, all because the US wants to eliminate a possible threat in Hussein. Many are sad about these deaths and blame the US gov't for starting this war. Others have no problems with this "collateral damage" as long as it means that they are guaranteed their personal freedoms (which oddly enough don't have much to do with this war.)

  • ThiChi

    "I don't think this has been taken out of context. "

    LOL! You then need to re-read the comments here. The very fact of the topic "statement" used to announce this thread is an incitement of the US troops.....

    Please don’t white wash the facts.

  • Trauma_Hound

    You mean like you do all the time Thi Chi? Now go away, you supporter of baby killers.

  • Gamaliel

    It may sound like I'm saying this facetiously, but these "spins" are necessary during war. War can be very demoralizing to the country if the military brass were to tell the truth all the time. If they were to tell the truth or even give any credence to the emotionally charged accounts of war (like the one above) it would be "aiding and abetting the enemy." War usually requires lying in addition to the attempts to hide true emotion, a psychological form of lying.

    I don't think we, the nation, or the family should know how many of their dead and wounded were actually caused by the young kid next to him. We get the feeling that there are MORE cases of friendly fire (FF) now, because they are reported and admitted more quickly. But there is probably a lot LESS of it now than in past wars due to better training. I'm guessing that this is the reason we are allowing journalists to ride along closely again -- because this war is going smoothly in terms of low mistakes and low FF casualties. But even now, in addition to the admitted FF casualties, there are likely already several of the dead supposedly killed by Iraqi, that were accidentally killed by a friend.

    My wife's favorite cousin, stationed in Germany for 20 years, is now in Kuwait (or Iraq?) at the moment. In his years training new "kids" he has seen lethal mistakes in training, and hundreds more mistakes that would have been lethal in action.


  • Yizuman
    Simon wrote, "Truly shocking ... 11 people of the same family, mostly children

    This is not going to endear us to the Iraqi people."

    It is and no one wants to see a family get or nearly get wiped out as a result of war or a horrible tragic mistake.

    But the story I above read isn't in depth as I have read it from here in the local Indianapolis Star....


    But remember that last weekend on Saturday a Taxi drove to the checkpoint and it blew up killing 4 US Servicemen and injuring scores of others. So I do not blame the US Servicemen getting the major jitters and start shooting in order to protect themselves and others. The jitters they had gotten is blamed on the terrorists who are now blowing themselves up and killing US Servicemen and others in the name of Saddam. There are fanatics who will do anything for Saddam.

    While we try to be careful not to kill civilians, but nonetheless civilians will die anyway regardless of the outcome of the war...

    Saddam has said before and the US has said before that civilians will enter in military installations as human shields and will die for Saddam so that when reporters takes shots of civilian castualties, they can point fingers at the US Government and blame them for their deaths and call the US Government bloodthirsty murderers.

    Other civilians I have no doubt will be forced into buildings and blow them up and then say to their TV News Station that we did this. Saddam has no qualms in killing his own citizens and he has done it before countless of times. As you may have already read the newspapers, the Iraqi army are shooting at civilians who makes a stand against Saddam and also shooting at civilians fleeing the country into nearby borders.

    Saddam has gassed over 5000 Kurdish Villagers up at the Northern Iraq near the Turkey border. He used just about everything he had, mustard gas, nerve gas and smallpox gas which effected scores of people leaving them with what looks german measles but covers 100% of their bodies. Many died. Men, women and children have all died.

    Turkey has no love for the Kurdish Villagers either and they too rather see them all dead just as much as Saddam wants them all dead.

    Turkey is guilty of killing the Kurdish people just as much as Saddam is, only thing is that they aren't willing to kill them as much as Saddam is willing, so instead Turkey have supplied Saddam all the chemical and biological agents he needs. They even bought out the smallpox virus from the what is now the defuncent Soviet cold war labortories and then resold it to Saddam on the black market.

    Turkey has been Iraq's chemical and biological supplier for many years. I am somewhat at loss why Bush isn't going after the Turkey government for what they have done. By all senses, this is considered supplying Iraq WMD simply because of what the chemical and biological agents can do in one shot from whatever canister is used, bullets, a rocket, doesn't matter, they can still do massive damage.

    Plus if you recall reading last week or so, Bush warned the Turkey government not to lay hands on the Kurdish people nor send any of their troops across the border or they will regret it if they did. This goes to show Turkey was just about to go out and get their hands all bloodied with Kurdish blood. Good thing our Airborne Division troops is at the Kurdish side now protecting them and keeping an eye on the Turkey border for Turkish troops. They just landed their last week.

    I have pictures of the Kurdish people who have been gassed to death by Saddam's chemical weapons and they are not pretty. They're at my computer in storage. One day when I get my own place, I'll post them.


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