'You didn't fire a warning shot soon enough!'

by William Penwell 148 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  teejay

  Tim,

  I've admitted that my daughter's life is the one exception to my "no life is better than any other" rule. Am I closer to some? Love/have affection for some more than others? Of course. But in the context of war I personally don't see American life as worth more than any other life. I'm deeply pained that children are being beheaded by American gunfire, but that happens in time of war. Are they more important or valuable than the dead Americans? No. But neither are the dead Americans more important than them.

  Your scenario of having to choose between a foreigner and an American is, to me, kinda silly -- no offense. Not gonna happen. All I know is that I grieve as much for the Iraqi mother that just lost her two children as I do for Jessica Lynch. Probably worse - cause she lost TWO and Lynch is coming home.

  But that's me. Don't be mad at me. Just stating my personal opinion... not one that everyone should have.
• 

  tyydyy

  Simon,

  We have to remember that simply surviving may be the best that some people can do

  Surviving to me includes protecting my family and neighbors from being tortured and murdered simply because they want change.

  As for this whole "Americans fought against oppression" LOL You again need to look into history more closely and without the spin put on things. The rich colonial land-owners didn't want to pay TAXES. It was not about oppression at all - the slaves and people who they rules over were as oppressed by them as they were by the British. This oppression didn't go away when the British did.

  "One nation, free from Tyranny" ... was more propaganda than reality.

  Which spin should I believe? British or American? Regardless of the motives they stood up for what they wanted and did not want. I have a hard time believing that it was simply the rich land owners that wanted to be free from the taxes. If that was the case then I would suggest that the Iraqi citizens needed some good propaganda writers to incite their population to revolt. I agreee with you 100% on the sanction issue. TimB
• 

  tyydyy

  teejay,

  Mad at you?????????

  TimB
• 

  teejay

  >>> Mad at you??????

  Just an expression, Tim. Just a way of saying... well... don't be mad at me.
• 

  DakotaRed

  Why was nothing done to help them in any of the last 12 years? Why make things even worse for them with cruel sanctions and only start taking action when real progress was being made with the inspection programme? These are the sort of things that make me question what I'm told as to the motives for going to war.

  Personally, Simon, it embarrass's me that we did encourage them to revolt and then left them high and dry. Whether it was due to a Democratic Congress or a Republican President, or the coalition or the United Nations, I don't know, it was wrong. We encouraged them to overthrow Saddam and left them floundering.

  The sanctions, even though blamed on the US, are from the UN and could have been lifted many years ago, had Saddam complied to the resolutions. Even Hans Blix said so many months ago. Still, Iraq was receiving billions of dollars in food for oil sales. Obviously, the money wasn't being used for food for the people. A possibility I have heard suggested is to make Iraq similar to Alaska, where all citizens receive a portion of the profits from the oil sales. Of course, this might upset the OPEC nations as they also let their citizens flounder.

  The inspections were in place for 12 years, were they not? Except for the period of 1998 to 2002, when they were thrown out of the country. Still, even the inspectors complained that Saddam was not fully complying with the inspections and I'm sorry, but a few weapons destroyed don't impress me as compliance. Not after 12 years. There is also the matter of his refusal to account for known caches of chemical weapons, other than claims of we poured them out in the desert.

  Having said that, finding them will be very hard as Saddam had 5 years to transfer them to terrorists and Syria, where I believe much of them are. Just a gut feeling.

  On a similar note, I am for all nations destroying their WMDs, Nukes included. This won't happen as long as little upstarts fanatics like Saddam acquire them. Still, if the UN had any gonads at all, I feel they would be mandating that all nations start destroying them. The US has destroyed some, but not enough yet.

  I believe there are WMDs in Iraq as well as some transferred elsewhere. I also believe the people of Iraq have suffered too long and as I said above, as a veteran who was also prevented from returning to help a nation as it feel to Communism, even though that too was promised, it does shame me that those Iraqis that tried to overthrow Saddam were left to die. Even though 12 years late, overthrowing Saddam and giving the Iraqis a chance at freedom is long overdue, I feel.
• 

  Simon

  Perhaps you will campaign more at home then, America is the country that is increasing it's nuclear arsenal more than any other and trampling over agreements made.

  The comments about American lies being more valuable than any others simply astounds me. What is equally amazing is that you wonder why half the world "hates" (or at least dislikes) you when this is the sort of attitude shown.

  "He should live, he's American ... kill the chink"

  ... never mind that the American may be a serial killer and the chinese guy a hard working family man. Let's just judge things on "who looks like me". After all, we deverve to live, we're better than them ... we are the master race ... seig heil ...

  Why should I value the life of some redneck or trailer-trash somewhere more than the life of an Iraqi mother?

  Of course this is a dangerous concept isn't it? If things are equal, it makes it hard to justify going to war over the few thousand killed in the WTC and ignoring the many more thousands that are killed by our policies. But hey, they are only poor children who lived their short little lives in poverty. Not nearly as valuable as human beings as the well-paid, well-fed stock-brokers and such.

  A life is a life. These poor people need a break.

  I value the lives of my own family and friends more that those that I do not know simply becausee I know them enough to make a judgement. If you really want to choose between an American and a China man, you would first need to get to know them a bit better surely?!
• 

  Simon

  Funny that after 12 years of inspections an sanctions, they finally decide to go to war just when the inspectors are saying that they are making real progress and gettnig genuine cooperation.

  Of course, it's nothing to do with Iraq wanting to be paid for the underpriced oil for food in Euro's instead of Dollars or Bush & his oil-company backers being in power.

  Just coincidences
• 

  DakotaRed

  Of course, it's nothing to do with Iraq wanting to be paid for the underpriced oil for food in Euro's instead of Dollars or Bush & his oil-company backers being in power.

  Sorry, Simon, but as evil as we Americans are, we don't set oil prices. We have to pay what they ask, just like others. By what you and others accuse of us of, Iraq would be our largest oil importer, since of 5th. It also seems your hatred of our President and his administration blinds you to the fact that he has only been president for a little over 2 years, not the entire past 12. With all the self grandizing squares I'm seeing on the news of Saddam, it would appear he made sure he was set in stone, while his country starved. To expect the US to make sure the people of Iraq received the benefit of Food for Oil sales, would have put us right where we are today, only earlier.

  The Clinton administration, the one that Euros seem to love endlessly, had every opportunity to do something, besides diddle interns.

  Bush inherited this mess and after Sept. 11, is trying to do something about it, to ensure no more Sept. 11's, not just here, but everywhere. Whether you see it or not, this is just another battle of the war against terrorist.
• 

  Simon

  Sorry, Simon, but as evil as we Americans are, we don't set oil prices.

  Erm ... when did I say Americans were evil? I was highlighting how comments like the ones made appear to others.

  We have to pay what they ask, just like others.

  Actually, you set the price for Iraqi oil and it is lower than the market rate. They have to sell it to you as it's the only way they get the food they desparately need. I don't think this setup benefits Iraqi's in any way whatsoever but someone somewhere is getting cheap oil and if you look at company reports you will see that lot's have been made.

  By what you and others accuse of us of, Iraq would be our largest oil importer, since of 5th.

  Not sure what you mean as this sentance doesn't make sense to me. Whether they are the biggest or 5th supplier doesn't really come into it.

  It also seems your hatred of our President and his administration blinds you to the fact that he has only been president for a little over 2 years, not the entire past 12.

  Again, you are ascribing feelings to me to justify your own position. When have I said I hate the president or the Administration? I dislike a lot of what they have done and think it's better to keep pressure on politicians to do the right thing - surely this is better than writing them a 'blank cheque' ?

  As for him being in power for just 2 years ... this is my point. We have had inspections and the inspections were starting to work well but it seems to many people that Bush and his cohorts were determined that they wanted a war. In fact, it's well documented that they had been planning it way before evern Sep 11.

  With all the self grandizing squares I'm seeing on the news of Saddam, it would appear he made sure he was set in stone, while his country starved. To expect the US to make sure the people of Iraq received the benefit of Food for Oil sales, would have put us right where we are today, only earlier.

  You really need to put things clearer as your comments are very ambiguous. Are you saying being where we are today sonner would have been better or worse? The whole point is that the Food for Oil sales is a complete sham to get cheap oil and they have to sell it cheaply to get the food they need. Just think - if we gave them the proper rate for the oil then they could BUY MORE FOOD. Think about that. No, don't just skim it and dismiss it but READ IT and THINK ABOUT IT.

  Bush inherited this mess and after Sept. 11, is trying to do something about it, to ensure no more Sept. 11's, not just here, but everywhere. Whether you see it or not, this is just another battle of the war against terrorist.

  Did he really inherit this "mess" (your word) after Sept 11 or did he create it? Could you explain the link between Sept 11 and attacking Iraq? Can you explain how bombing Iraq will make America less of a target than continuing the inspections and diplomatic efforts which were cut short by America and Britain?
• 

  Trauma_Hound

  Simon, your not going to get real answers from people, that are only capable of thinking in circles. The fact of the matter is, that sactions don't work, Cuba is proof of this. The only thing sanctions do is punish the innocents, and put money in the pockets of the dictators. Really nice of the US, eh?

  <Watching CNN Centcom briefing>

  Hahaha, the Centcom guy is stammering, after a Journalist pointed out some pictures he was showing, were the same pictures showed nine days ago, and they were being presented as something new that happened. Just love the lies that keep flowing out of there. I can not fathom why people can't see these lies. Take your blinders off people. You left a cult, why are you trading that for another cult?