by Doug Mason 277 Replies latest watchtower bible
Sanchy
You cannot separate the kingdom of God in Dan 4 from Neb's humiliation for that was then the point of the dream for to do so shows that you lack exegetical skills.
There is such an explicit connection, just do the exegesis of Dan.4.
Hermeneia commentary on Daniel is not to be overlooked so get cracking and study it.
scholar
Scholar: You cannot separate the kingdom of God in Dan 4 from Neb's humiliation for that was then the point of the dream for to do so shows that you lack exegetical skills.
I haven't separated the kingdom from Dan 4, so I'm not sure what you are talking about. I'm just pointing out your false claim that there is a second meaning for the dream. The Tree does not represent said Kingdom, as you and Watchtower claim, and there's no way you can prove otherwise.
Scholar: There is such an explicit connection, just do the exegesis of Dan.4.
Nope, this is a lie. There is no such "explicit" connection between the "seven weeks" and the "seventy years". This is just a product of your eisegetical analysis, as provided by your religious leaders..
Scholar: Neb's humiliation for that was then the point of the dream
Exactly. I'm glad we finally agree. That was the point of the dream. It was not to establish some funny math formula to determine when Jesus would invisibly return.
Sanchy
You have not just separated the Kingdom of God from the humiliation of Neb but you have extinguished it!!! The tree represented both Neb's world rulership and the universal sovereignty of Jehovah God as expressed by the Kingdom of God as recognized by Bible commentators, expositors and the celebrated WT scholars.
The connection between the seventy years and the seven times is inherent in Dan. 4 as shown by the reference to it in the OG translation of that chapter and is explicit in the fact that both events began at the same time in 607 BCE.
The point of the dream was to show Neb that he was subjected to a far greater rulership of the Heavens, God's Kingdom or sovereignty.
scholar
Scholar, you do realise that if 607 was right - which it isn't, you still cant arrive mathematically at 1914.
The years in the prophecy are 360 day years, clearly stated in the orgs publications.
You are using 365 day years to arrive at 1914, which is impossible.
joey jojo
The methodology used is the 360 day/years system for interpreting prophecy combining with current calendrical systems as tp months and years as round numbers thus avoiding the problems with adopting 365 daily cycle. the subject is well explained in current WT publications in keeping with the KISS principle.
scholar
Oh come on everybody, just tell Scholar that he and the JW/WT are right, Jerusalem fell in 607BCE and Jesus sat on his Throne in 1914. Just agree with his nonsense, and maybe he will go elsewhere, instead of clogging up this place, where once upon a time we had sensible debates.
Scholar: The tree represented both Neb's world rulership and the universal sovereignty of Jehovah God as expressed by the Kingdom of God as recognized by Bible commentators, expositors and the celebrated WT scholars.
..indeed. You have to turn to these extra-biblical eisegetical analysis in order to come to such a conclusion, since the Bible itself suggest no such thing. Anyone interested in the matter can easily open up to Dan 4 and see for themselves how foolish it would be to claim the dream has more than one interpretation
Scholar: that chapter is explicit in the fact that both events began at the same time in 607 BCE.
King Nebuchadnezzar didn't even begin to reign until 605 BCE and thus the dream's fulfillment where the the king was "given vegetation to eat just like bulls" could't have occurred in 607, as you claim.
Scholar: The point of the dream was to show Neb that he was subjected to a far greater rulership of the Heavens, God's Kingdom or sovereignty.
Agreed. This was the point of the dream. It was NOT, however, for creating a math formula to establish the date of Christ's "invisible" return some millennia in its future, as adherents to Watchtower theology claim.
Many of the JWS doctrines are delusional idiocy tainted with commercialism, should this be surprising after all it is a corrupt religious publishing house.
The delusional and insane part is that people think its Jehovah's earthly publishing house
Sanchy
Finally, you have sen the light for any reader can see for himself/herself that Dan 4 must have both a literal and figurative fulfilment because of the literary structure of the tree dream, context within the book of Daniel and the terms used in Dan 4.
Neb began his reign much earlier than 605 BCE which is a date based not on Bible Chronology but on NB Chronology.so his humiliation must have occurred after his 18th year when he destroyed Jerusalem in 607 BCE.
The point of the dream was Kingship and as we are encouraged to discern the 'times' in the course of history accompanied with such prophetic formulae then such calculations are proper as part of Salvation History which includes and reveals the doctrine of the Gentile Times-Like 21:24.
scholar
Scholar: Finally, you have sen the light for any reader can see for himself/herself that Dan 4 must have both a literal and figurative fulfilment because of the literary structure of the tree dream, context within the book of Daniel and the terms used in Dan 4.
Nope, this is just your opinion, as is thankfully obvious to most. It is in plain sight that Daniel 4 has no figurative fulfillment unless you apply an eisegetical analysis.You can't prove otherwise, as hard as you keep trying.
Scholar :his humiliation must have occurred after his 18th year when he destroyed Jerusalem in 607 BCE.
Even with your own flawed chronology you still manage to contradict your original statement that the "seven times" and "seventy years" share 607 in common. They don't.
Scholar: The point of the dream was Kingship and as we are encouraged to discern the 'times' in the course of history accompanied with such prophetic formulae then such calculations are proper as part of Salvation History which includes and reveals the doctrine of the Gentile Times-Like 21:24.
Nope. Now you've just included, from your own bias, an extra-biblical interpretation. Perhaps you should consider the words of Proverbs 30:6: "Do not add to his words, he will rebuke you and prove you a liar."
Your original statement from previous comments was correct. The purpose of the dream was to humiliate the King "until you know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind and that he grants it to whomever he wants" (Dan 4:32), which occured at the end of the seven times, when he "looked up to the heavens" and had his understanding return to him. (Dan 4:34)
