Did Jeruselm fall in 587 or 586 BCE?

by Doug Mason 277 Replies latest watchtower bible

scholar

Sanchy
Even so, regardless of whether it were years, months or any other amount of time, the seven times had one application and that is to King Neb, as per Daniel himself. No mention of a second "greater" meaning is given, as your bosses at Watchtower claim.
---
This is simply your opinion and you cannot prove that only one application of the tree dream is applicable but WT scholars have provided proof as I have outlined that there are two application of the dream.
---
You really struggle with the definition of "exegesis" and "eisegesis". Please, check the wikipedia article on the subject, it's actually surprisingly thorough, and it will prevent you from further embarrassment
-----
No need to struggle because I studied Hermeneutics at the university and I am familiar with the steps of Exegesis so would like me to outline those steps? Then you can do your own exegesis of ch. 4 as I have done.
-----
I'd add that the only thing "readily apparent" to the reader of Dan 4 would be the interpretation Daniel gave to the dream himself, for this is the only interpretation given within that chapter. Your injected secondary meaning (overlapping fulfillment lol) where you claim that the Tree from the dream actually means God's Rulership (a side note: it is absurd to have God share the same symbol as a Pagan King) and that the "seven times" actually means 2,250 years and that you then magically end up at 1914, is NOT "readily apparent" to any reader, except those that bring the bias with them (eisegesis)
---
It is about time that you added something to this discussion for all that we have had from you is a lot of whining and posturing Daniel interpreted the dream and applied this to Neb but the language, symbolism and other thematic references such as God;s Kingdom confirms that the dream applied to something beyond Neb's experience and that is the reality and supremacy of God's sovereignty For this is overarching feature not only of this dream vision but the entire book of Daniel.. I have no issues with Bobcat's interpretation for it is up to the reader himself to discern its true meaning.
scholar
Sanchy

Scholar: This is simply your opinion and you cannot prove that only one application of the tree dream is applicable but WT scholars have provided proof as I have outlined that there are two application of the dream.
I don't need to prove a negative. It is up to you to prove that there is a second meaning to the dream of Dan 4, but you can't show me any verse that directly says the dream has more than one meaning, because there isn't any, so you must instead turn to your biased, eisegetical perspective.
Scholar: No need to struggle because I studied Hermeneutics at the university
Maybe you need a refresher course since you keep struggling with the terms

Scholar: ..the language, symbolism and other thematic references such as God;s Kingdom confirms that the dream applied to something beyond Neb's experience
.. indeed, as I've mentioned previously you are seeking hidden meanings and connecting unconnected dots to arrive at your conclusion. Your God should really be called "The Riddler".
Scholar: I have no issues with Bobcat's interpretation for it is up to the reader himself to discern its true meaning.
It matters not if you "have issues" with Bobcat's interpretation or not. The point is that Bobcat's interpretation is just as likely of being wrong as yours, for it is all based on assumptions and hypothesis.
There is no direct suggestion within Daniel 4 that the dream means anything other than what Daniel himself describes in verses 19-27, and nowhere in there will you find anything about the "gentile times" nor anything about Jeremiah's 70 years nor anything regarding 2,250 years that lead to 1914. You've forced all those elements into the dream.
scholar

johnyamos
WT scholars do not deny that the seventy years has no implications for the surrounding nation because for that period of seventy years from the Fall to the Return wherein Judah was desolate and in servitude to Babylon meant that Babylon had complete dominion over all of the surrounding nations and territories just as Jeremiah foretold in ch 25 and again by Isaiah in reference to Tre which also came under Babylon's domination. But the important fact is that Jeremiah's seventy years were specifically addressed to Judah and Judah alone accompanied by its widespread effects or impact on the other nations which also would like Babylon experience judgement.
---
YES something historical did happen in 609. That is when Babylon defeated Assyria making Babylon the 3rd world power, until is came to its end in 539. (70 years)
---
This is simply opinion not historical fact because such cannot be determined definitively so we have some event which is simply too fuzzy so unsuitable to serve as a time marker and that is why Jonsson toyed with 605 rather than 609 BCE.
For this reason, it has been shown that the beginning of the seventy years with the Fall of Jerusalem which is a marked event in biblical history and signified chronologically is the only possible candidate for the beginning of the seventy years in 607 BCE and ending in 537BCE.
scholar
johnamos

This is simply opinion not historical fact because such cannot be determined definitively so we have some event which is simply too fuzzy so unsuitable to serve as a time marker
You have no idea what you are talking about. The link that I put to the BM has the chronicle that shows the fall of Nineveh as 612 and then 609 was the fall of Haran that did away with the Assyrian empire.
That aside, I showed that the WTS says the fall of Haran was in 629 because they add 20 years to 587 to come to 607 so they have to keep adding the 20 years to everything so the 609 becomes 629.
So with that noted that means that if Babylon defeated Assyrian with that last battle in Haran in 629 then that means Babylon was the 3rd world power for 90 years. (629-539)
WHAT do you say about the FACT that verse 11 says that NATIONS WOULD ONLY HAVE TO SERVE BABYLON FOR 70 YEARS?
RubaDub

We really need to understand the numeric relationships herein presented. If we add the cardinal numerals of 587 together (5+8+7) we arrive at 20. However, if we add the cardinal numerals of 586 (5+8+6) we arrive at 19, a prime number which cannot be created by multiplying two natural numbers together.
This is the same scenario presented when we look at the year 607 (6+0+7) and again arrive at a prime number, 13, which also cannot be created by multiplying two natural numbers together.
The unique aspect of 607 is that it contains a zero, which has been problematic due to the misunderstanding by many researchers since there is no zero year.
I can provide reference citations in APA 6th edition format if needed to support the analysis.
Rub a Dub
scholar

johnamos
You have no idea what you are talking about. The link that I put to the BM has the chronicle that shows the fall of Nineveh as 612 and then 609 was the fall of Haran that did away with the Assyrian empire.
That aside, I showed that the WTS says the fall of Haran was in 629 because they add 20 years to 587 to come to 607 so they have to keep adding the 20 years to everything so the 609 becomes 629.
So with that noted that means that if Babylon defeated Assyrian with that last battle in Haran in 629 then that means Babylon was the 3rd world power for 90 years. (629-539
----
All that you are presenting is a number of key historical events relating to the last days of the Assyrian Empire and the early phase of the Neo-Babylonian Empire based on Neo-Babylonian Chronology which is falsified by Jeremiah's 'seventy years' which requires the adjustment of some twenty years to that traditional chronology. WT publications have made that adjustment of twenty years in our publications which no doubt you will find that these now corrected dates are most helpful.
-----
WHAT do you say about the FACT that verse 11 says that NATIONS WOULD ONLY HAVE TO SERVE BABYLON FOR 70 YEARS?
---
Not much really for this is simply your interpretation of which can be interpreted quite differently indicating that the Judah alone was desolate for 70 years and Judah along with other surrounding nations served Babylon for 70 years which ran from the Fall in 607 to the Return in 537 BCE.
If you truly believe that the nations served Babylon for 70 years then with the exception of Tyre can you document how that period of servitude applied to all the other nations listed amounting to at least 18 in number in Jer. 25:17-26.
Enjoy!!!!
scholar
scholar

RubaDub
Methinks you are dabbling in numerology.
scholar
scholar

Sanchy
I don't need to prove a negative. It is up to you to prove that there is a second meaning to the dream of Dan 4, but you can't show me any verse that directly says the dream has more than one meaning, because there isn't any, so you must instead turn to your biased, eisegetical perspective
----
I have proved that a secondary meaning is located in the narrative of the tree dream by means of its language, terms used such repeated references to God's Kingdom/rulership, thematic content and the linguistics associated with the word for 'times' used 4 times in the ch.4. It is not the case to simply say that you do not need to prove a negative for this rather cowardly and shows that you have a hidden agenda. The fact is that if the matter is of concern to you then you must do the exegesis of the chapter for all that you are doing is simply eisegesis- imposing your own literal interpretation onto the text.
----
Maybe you need a refresher course since you keep struggling with the terms
---
At least I am doing something right as I have your constant attention.
----
indeed, as I've mentioned previously you are seeking hidden meanings and connecting unconnected dots to arrive at your conclusion. Your God should really be called "The Riddler".
---
There are longer hidden meanings because as Dan.2 refers 4 times that God is the Revealer of secrets.
-----
t matters not if you "have issues" with Bobcat's interpretation or not. The point is that Bobcat's interpretation is just as likely of being wrong as yours, for it is all based on assumptions and hypothesis.
----
Dan 4 has right from its times been subject to interpretation of which there are many so nothing new here so the challenge is for you and for any reader to find the the correct interpretation that is in harmony with the context of the chapter, book of Daniel, and entire Bible.
-----
There is no direct suggestion within Daniel 4 that the dream means anything other than what Daniel himself describes in verses 19-27, and nowhere in there will you find anything about the "gentile times" nor anything about Jeremiah's 70 years nor anything regarding 2,250 years that lead to 1914. You've forced all those elements into the dream.
-- You are simply repeating nonsense without any basis in exegesis. The expression 'Gentile Times although not found in Daniel but in Luke which as the 'times'- being appointed or definite would be an exegetical link for both Luke 21:24 and Dan 4 in harmony of the eschatology of both books. Dan 4 has an exegetical link to jeremiah's 'seventy years' by means of its referene in the OG of Dan 4.
scholar
johnamos

If you truly believe that the nations served Babylon for 70 years then with the exception of Tyre can you document how that period of servitude applied to all the other nations listed amounting to at least 18 in number in Jer. 25:17-26.
YES I can and there is no reason to leave Tyre out since it is listed along with the other nations and the Scriptures read 'THESE NATIONS' and 'ALL THE NATIONS".
When Babylon defeated the 2nd world power Assyria in 609, Babylon became the 3rd world power, likewise when Medo-Persian defeated Babylon in 539, Medo-Persian became the 4th world power.*
* [12-1-71 WT p. 715 - This prophecy begins to apply, therefore, after Darius the Mede and Cyrus the Persian brought about the downfall of Babylon in the autumn of the year 539 B.C.E. and the Medo-Persian Empire was established as the Fourth World Power of Bible history. This Empire, which grew to greater size than that of Babylon, eastward and westward and southward, continued its world domination from 539 to 331 B.C.E.]
From the point that Babylon became the 3rd power by defeating Assyria (609) to the time that Babylon was defeated itself by Medo-Persian (539), is when all the nations were subjected to Babylon. All nations served Babylon for the same amount of time, 70 years (609-539).That is how the period of servitude applied to all the nations.
Jeremiah 25:11 And all this land will be reduced to ruins and will become an object of horror, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon for 70 years.”’+ 12 “‘But when 70 years have been fulfilled,+ I will call to account* the king of Babylon and that nation for their error,’+ declares Jehovah, ‘and I will make the land of the Chal·deʹans a desolate wasteland for all time.+
[Jeremiah 27:6 And now I have given all these lands into the hand of my servant King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar of Babylon; even the wild beasts of the field I have given him to serve him. 7 ALL THE NATIONS WILL HAVE TO SERVE him and his son and his grandson until the time for his own land comes, when many nations and great kings will make him their slave.’8 ‘If any nation or kingdom refuses to serve King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar of Babylon and refuses to put its neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon, I will punish that nation with the sword, with famine, and with pestilence,’ declares Jehovah, ‘until I have finished them off by his hand.’9 Therefore, do not listen to your prophets, your diviners, your dreamers, your magicians, and your sorcerers, who are saying to you: “You will not serve the king of Babylon.” 10 For they are prophesying lies to you, so that you will be taken far away from your land and I will disperse you and you will perish.11 ‘But the nation that brings its neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon and serves him, I will allow to remain on its land,’ declares Jehovah, ‘to cultivate it and dwell in it.]
Finkelstein

So what we can see in regards to the theological dating of 1914 by the WTS/JWS that it was a weakly devised doctrine, unscriptural, even an act of apostasy at that.
The WTS proclamation that god had chosen their organization because of their true adherence to the written word, well that was a contrite lie/sin in itself as well.
The poster who calls himself scholar through his attempt to justify this doctrine is indicative in showing his own innate corruption on the matter.
Inspired delusions can be useful toward literature proliferation, the WTS and other charlatans have proven that well.

Did Jeruselm fall in 587 or 586 BCE?

Share this